USGA position on smartphone GPSs

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jshots

I'm telling you all they need to do is say that the golfer cannot be allowed to access anything other than distance information during a round but that doesn't mean you can't have other capabilities in the device.

That shouldn't mean your phone can't have a compass or a weather app, because everyone's does. It's already a game of integrity, no one is going to break that line of cheating just because they can now have access to a compass.

There's a rule against rolling your ball around onto a better lie, but people do it all the time when nobody's looking.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshots

I'm telling you all they need to do is say that the golfer cannot be allowed to access anything other than distance information during a round but that doesn't mean you can't have other capabilities in the device.

That shouldn't mean your phone can't have a compass or a weather app, because everyone's does. It's already a game of integrity, no one is going to break that line of cheating just because they can now have access to a compass.

There's a rule against rolling your ball around onto a better lie, but people do it all the time when nobody's looking.

The point jshots is making is that if you're someone who is going to cheat by accessing non-allowed information or apps (like a compass), then the rule as currently written is no more of a deterrent and no more enforceable than a rule which said instead, "DMD apps are allowed regardless of what other apps may be installed, provided you don't use any non-conforming apps" (and provided the DMD app itself doesn't give you any non-allowed information, obviously).  Therefore, why not word the rule that way, so that people who *aren't* cheaters can legally use the DMD app regardless of what other apps might happen to be on the phone.

Bottom line is, it's obvious the rules bodies didn't realize that most if not all smart phones come with things like built-in compasses, and browsers capable of accessing weather sites. The R&A; has recently corrected the wording of the rule as it pertains to weather by saying you can use a DMD app as long as the only access to weather info is via an internet browser. Once they realize that most smart phones have a built-in compass as well, I'm betting the rule is clarified again, based on the logic in my first paragraph above (which apparently is the logic that prompted the R&A; to make the change regarding weather info).

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

There's a rule against rolling your ball around onto a better lie, but people do it all the time when nobody's looking.

But the app ruling is more like saying that if you are wearing shoes and COULD roll the ball into a better lie then you are in violation.  Rules don't STOP cheating they tell us what it is.  And if someone uses a DMD and nothing else on their phone then the rules should not tell us that they are cheating.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by turtleback

But the app ruling is more like saying that if you are wearing shoes and COULD roll the ball into a better lie then you are in violation.  Rules don't STOP cheating they tell us what it is.  And if someone uses a DMD and nothing else on their phone then the rules should not tell us that they are cheating.

And that's when I go back to saying "how is a fellow competitor gonna know if you click the "slope" feature in your laser rangefinder on a few holes"? Every other act of cheating is kind of "noticeable" by your fellow competitors.

You can say the USGA "relies on honesty" all you want but most Rules don't rely on honesty and integrity, but virtually every Rule is such that a fellow competitor can say "hey, you broke that rule."

I don't get the uproar over this. If you're playing in a serious tournament, just put your phone away. If it's just a handicap round with your buddies, well, nobody follows the Rules then anyway. :-)

P.S. One could argue too that the USGA is attempting to prevent people from inadvertently causing problems for themselves. Plus, "no phones" is clearer than trying to define exactly what's considered an illegal feature on a phone.

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

But the app ruling is more like saying that if you are wearing shoes and COULD roll the ball into a better lie then you are in violation. Rules don't STOP cheating they tell us what it is .  And if someone uses a DMD and nothing else on their phone then the rules should not tell us that they are cheating.

And that's when I go back to saying "how is a fellow competitor gonna know if you click the "slope" feature in your laser rangefinder on a few holes"? Every other act of cheating is kind of "noticeable" by your fellow competitors.

(I bolded that part in Turtleback's post because I thought it was an excellent way of putting it.)

Erik, I agree that, much like clicking the slope feature, it's going to be hard for a competitor to know whether you have illegal apps installed on your smart phone if you're using a DMD app - but that's true regardless of how the DMD app rule is worded.  Therefore shouldn't it be worded in a way that allows for DMD apps on smart phones to be used, if that's the intent? Because again, the way it's currently worded it effectively bans all DMD apps on smart phones, since most if not all smart phones contain a compass.

Quote:

I don't get the uproar over this. If you're playing in a serious tournament, just put your phone away. If it's just a handicap round with your buddies, well, nobody follows the Rules then anyway. :-)

And I don't get why you don't get the uproar. People who play in tournaments where DMDs are allowed would like to use their DMD apps. How are they going to use the one on their phone if the rule as currently worded forces them to put their phone away?  And as far as non-tournament play, many members of this forum (including you, if I'm not mistaken) over the years have expressed their desire to play by all the rules regardless of whether it's a casual or a competitive round.

Quote:

P.S. One could argue too that the USGA is attempting to prevent people from inadvertently causing problems for themselves. Plus, "no phones" is clearer than trying to define exactly what's considered an illegal feature on a phone.

Yes, that would be clearer. But it's not the rule they made. The rule they made allows phones, allows DMD apps (ostensibly), and tries to define the illegal features. That's the crux of this discussion - the rule is worded such that it looks like they are trying to allow DMD apps on smart phones, but it really doesn't, because you can't use one if your phone has a compass - and it's my contention that that's a result of the ruling bodies not understanding that most if not all smart phones have compasses.

I don't even have a smart phone so I have no dog in this hunt - I'm just saying the rule does not take into account the true state of technology.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Erik, I agree that, much like clicking the slope feature, it's going to be hard for a competitor to know whether you have illegal apps installed on your smart phone if you're using a DMD app - but that's true regardless of how the DMD app rule is worded.  Therefore shouldn't it be worded in a way that allows for DMD apps on smart phones to be used, if that's the intent? Because again, the way it's currently worded it effectively bans all DMD apps on smart phones, since most if not all smart phones contain a compass.

No, because then the USGA has to define "smartphone" and/or put out a list of "approved apps AND approved phones" or something.

Basically, the rule effectively reads like this: you cannot use your phone as a DMD because every phone capable of running a DMD app has illegal features, thus rendering the entire device illegal.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

And I don't get why you don't get the uproar.   People who play in tournaments where DMDs are allowed would like to use their DMD apps. How are they going to use the one on their phone if the rule as currently worded forces them to put their phone away?

How are they gonna? They can't. Tough beans. Buy a GPS or a laser so that you're not violating the rules. I'd like to call my coach mid-round or nudge my ball, but I can't do those things either. The Rules don't care what people "would like" to do - only what they're allowed to do.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yes, that would be clearer. But it's not the rule they made. The rule they made allows phones, allows DMD apps (ostensibly), and tries to define the illegal features.

And since virtually every smartphone (i.e. ones capable of running an app that does distance measuring) is illegal because of those features, the rule basically says "no phones."

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

...And since virtually every smartphone (i.e. ones capable of running an app that does distance measuring) is illegal because of those features, the rule basically says "no phones."

Ok, I thought that's what we were debating but apparently we're in violent agreement on that.

My take though is that the "no phones" consequence was unintended, given the wording of the flowchart in the R&A; link provided:

Originally Posted at http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/~/media/RandA/Equipment%20Notices/DMDflowchart.ashx

What kind of device is it?

- A dedicated DMD(e.g Laser rangefinder or GPS)

- Multi-functional (e.g. a mobile phone); installed with distance measuring application

...and given the attempt to clarify the "weather" app issue (simply having a browser is ok) that prompted the release of that flowchart in the first place.

I.e., to summarize my stance: The ruling bodies have unintentionally banned the use of DMD apps on smart phones (or any other mobile device that has a compass - the iPad being another example, for instance.)

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't get the uproar over this. If you're playing in a serious tournament, just put your phone away. If it's just a handicap round with your buddies, well, nobody follows the Rules then anyway. :-)

Well you can play the cynic if you want, but I DO follow the rules and THAT is why the uproar.  Because I don't want to cheat and I am not going to cheat.  But I am sure going to voice my opinion about a rule that makes no sense that has come about because the powers that be are technologically ignorant.

And as far as you argument that every other act of cheating is more noticeable, that has already been dealt with in another thread and you never refuted it.  So it is just stale bread.  How is your fellow competitor going to know that the little dial on your watch is a compass?  How is you fellow competitor going to see, from across the fairway, that your ball moved at address?  How is your fellow competitor going to know that you are missing putts on purpose to sandbag your handicap?  How is your fellow competitor going to know that you just accessed a weather report using your phone's built in browser, which the R&A; statement says is not a disqualifying feature, although using it this way is still cheating?

As far as your argument that the rule is essentially just saying "no phones", then why are they issuing statement after statement about phones?  If they are really just trying to say no phones why not just say it?  Because that is NOT what they are trying to say but they are too technologically ignorant to figure out how to do what they want because they don't know what the built-in capabilities of the phone are.  If they just limit the restrictions to the functions contained in the DMD app they will achieve their intended goal, IMO.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't get the uproar over this. If you're playing in a serious tournament, just put your phone away. If it's just a handicap round with your buddies, well, nobody follows the Rules then anyway. :-)

Because people who own a different type of conforming device (laser rangefingers) instead of a non-conforming for impractical purposes device then have an advantage.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

My take though is that the "no phones" consequence was unintended, given the wording of the flowchart in the R&A; link provided:

...and given the attempt to clarify the "weather" app issue (simply having a browser is ok) that prompted the release of that flowchart in the first place.

I.e., to summarize my stance: The ruling bodies have unintentionally banned the use of DMD apps on smart phones (or any other mobile device that has a compass - the iPad being another example, for instance.)

Yes, this is correct.  Everything that was said here is the issue.  This point was not clear before (based on the information in the other thread).   However, while this new information reveals no more concrete understanding of what is/isn't allowable, it seems to me to reveal their intentions, and simultaneously their limitation in understanding how the technology works and is advancing .  And the italicized point was something I was very adamant about in the first thread.

Brandon

[iacas]

There seems to be a problem with smileys at the moment. I try to add them, and the browser locks up. So as with many posts, please don't read any actual malice or ill will in these comments. Assume there are plenty of smileys.

Originally Posted by turtleback

Well you can play the cynic if you want, but I DO follow the rules and THAT is why the uproar.  Because I don't want to cheat and I am not going to cheat.

I'm glad you want to follow the rules. The point remains that if you're using a smartphone from the past few years as a DMD, you're most likely not following the rules. :)

Originally Posted by turtleback

And as far as you argument that every other act of cheating is more noticeable, that has already been dealt with in another thread and you never refuted it.

I believe I did refute it (we talked about this point for quite some time until I found that I was repeating myself, IIRC). If one of your best counter-examples is a guy missing putts to inflate his handicap in a tournament, you may need to rethink your examples. :P

Originally Posted by turtleback

As far as your argument that the rule is essentially just saying "no phones", then why are they issuing statement after statement about phones?

Statement after statement? One in 2009, and some guy interviewing Carter Rich? C'mon. :P

Originally Posted by turtleback

If they are really just trying to say no phones why not just say it?

Because DMDs are more than phones, and some phones (probably not any smart phones from the past few years) are perfectly legal.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Because people who own a different type of conforming device (laser rangefingers) instead of a non-conforming for impractical purposes device then have an advantage.

Distance is considered common knowledge. There's no real advantage. And you can buy a laser rangefinder just like the other guy. The rules do not say "people named Brandon may not use DMDs." The rules say, basically, "nobody can use a DMD on a smart phone."

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Yes, this is correct.  Everything that was said here is the issue.

I agree, except I don't think it was "unintentional" at all.

Smart phones are illegal to use as a DMD.

That's basically the rule. The USGA didn't just write "that" rule because there may exist somewhere a "phone" that can do DMD stuff that doesn't measure slope, or whatever. Maybe. I haven't ever seen one, but you can't write the Rules like that. Maybe the USGA should just put out a list of "Conforming DMDs." The list wouldn't contain any smart phones, I'd bet.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by iacas

I agree, except I don't think it was "unintentional" at all.

Smart phones are illegal to use as a DMD.

That's basically the rule. The USGA didn't just write "that" rule because there may exist somewhere a "phone" that can do DMD stuff that doesn't measure slope, or whatever. Maybe. I haven't ever seen one, but you can't write the Rules like that. Maybe the USGA should just put out a list of "Conforming DMDs." The list wouldn't contain any smart phones, I'd bet.

I was going to post exactly this. These guys are not out of touch, antiquated simpletons. They simply want to enforce the rule differently than you'd like. Calling them names because you don't agree with their decisions is unwarranted.

The rules for standalone DMDs are pretty clear. The rules are sensible and easily enforced. There's no need for a detailed inspection of the devices to see what modes are used, etc. If the device can do anything illegal, you cannot use it as a DMD.

The current rule is a logical extension of this. It's not the only logical extension, but you have to contort reality to argue that it's an absurd extension. They simply apply the existing rule to the smartphone. If it is used as a DMD, then it can't do anything not permitted.

There are still uncertain points, such as the question of installed apps versus hardware capabilities, but in most cases this is a simple rule that isn't going to create many actual problems (notwithstanding the unending breathless outrage expressed by the masses on the Internet). It doesn't require a careful determination of what someone was doing with their phone, it just requires identifying its model and maybe looking to see what is installed.

So sure, I'm sure it's annoying not to be able to use your device in legal competition, but I bet people who bought the rangefinders with the pull-out tab to disable the illegal measurements were annoyed when that was nixed. The rules are finding a balance between the spirit of the game, fairness, and enforceability. Just saying, "Anything goes," is going to create problems of its own, and in their judgement, it's preferable to deny certain uses that might be defensible.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by iacas

I agree, except I don't think it was "unintentional" at all.

Originally Posted by zeg

I was going to post exactly this. These guys are not out of touch, antiquated simpletons. They simply want to enforce the rule differently than you'd like.

I find it hard to believe people can come to this conclusion.  How do you reconcile the website and their comments which contradict the above conclusions?  That they don't understand the technology isn't "name calling," it's an observation based on the merit of their own actions/words.  It's evident.

Brandon

[jshots]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't get the uproar over this. If you're playing in a serious tournament, just put your phone away. If it's just a handicap round with your buddies, well, nobody follows the Rules then anyway. :-)

Yeah, that's pretty much what i'm doing right now. It would just be nice if I could use my phone gps during a tournament (lasers and dedicated gps are expensive, i can hardly afford the phone that I already have that has the same capabilities as a golf gps).

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I find it hard to believe people can come to this conclusion.  How do you reconcile the website and their comments which contradict the above conclusions?  That they don't understand the technology isn't "name calling," it's an observation based on the merit of their own actions/words.  It's evident.

Brandon

Well said, that's exactly what I think. The wording of the rule in my opinion just makes it sound like they don't really know what is going on. They talk about "apps" like it's ok to use them, and then condemn all apps because they are associated with other illegal things on your phone. Why not just straight up say, smartphones are illegal, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You can say the USGA "relies on honesty" all you want but most Rules don't rely on honesty and integrity, but virtually every Rule is such that a fellow competitor can say "hey, you broke that rule."

What gets me is that... you're allowed to use your smartphone for non golfing purposes, call your wife, email, etc... as long as you're not accessing illegal data like weather and what not. That to me is kind of where what iacas says about most rules to be enforceable by competitors falls apart. One thing I've learned playing tournaments is that golf is extremely reliant on the integrity of each player (mostly tournaments i played when younger especially where kids are constantly trying to and successfully cheating). I always keep someones score and track each of their shots as best I can, but there are bound to be times when you can't watch exactly what they are doing.

Straight out of the etiquette section of the rules:

Quote:

The Spirit of the Game

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

... and sure it isn't entirely reliant on this (unless of course you are playing by yourself which a lot of people do), but it is a MAJOR part of the game.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by jshots

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I find it hard to believe people can come to this conclusion.  How do you reconcile the website and their comments which contradict the above conclusions?  That they don't understand the technology isn't "name calling," it's an observation based on the merit of their own actions/words.  It's evident.

Well said, that's exactly what I think. The wording of the rule in my opinion just makes it sound like they don't really know what is going on. They talk about "apps" like it's ok to use them, and then condemn all apps because they are associated with other illegal things on your phone. Why not just straight up say, smartphones are illegal, period.

The above sentiments echo mine. Those who have stated the intent was to ban smart phones have not addressed why the language of the rule specifically mentions "mobile phones" as something that would be potentially legal to use a DMD app on. There are no mobile phones or any other mobile devices that I'm aware of that can run a DMD app that do not also have a built-in compass of some kind. So what kind of "mobile phones" are the rules bodies envisioning in that language?

So there's two possibilities here. Either:

1) The rules bodies want to ban smart phones but instead of saying "no smart phones" it says "No DMD apps allowed if you have a compass, even though checking email and stock quotes is fine."

or:

2) The rules bodies didn't realize that most if not all smart phones have a built-in compass.

The latter is the simpler, more logical, and more believable scenario. And that's not calling anybody names, or insulting the rules bodies. I didn't know myself that smart phones had compasses until I started reading these threads.

Originally Posted by jshots

What gets me is that... you're allowed to use your smartphone for non golfing purposes, call your wife, email, etc... as long as you're not accessing illegal data like weather and what not.

Yep, that's another example of the lack of internal logic in the rule set:  Why is every otherwise legal use of the phone ok even with a compass on it, but not use as a DMD?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yep, that's another example of the lack of internal logic in the rule set:  Why is every otherwise legal use of the phone ok even with a compass on it, but not use as a DMD?

Because it's not a rule written about smart phones; it's a rule written about DMDs, a class of devices which includes laser and GPS rangefinders.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yep, that's another example of the lack of internal logic in the rule set:  Why is every otherwise legal use of the phone ok even with a compass on it, but not use as a DMD?

Because it's not a rule written about smart phones; it's a rule written about DMDs, a class of devices which includes laser and GPS rangefinders.

In that statement I'm not talking about any single rule, I'm talking about the rules as a whole (hence "rule set").  The rules as a whole allow you to use your phone for any legal use you want even with a compass or club-selector app installed, except for a DMD app which would otherwise also be legal.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

Because it's not a rule written about smart phones; it's a rule written about DMDs, a class of devices which includes laser and GPS rangefinders.

If you are allowed to use a smartphone on the course so long as you aren't using it as a DMD, which seems to be clearly OK, then how can you detect your competitor's cheating when he uses the compass but tells you he is texting his wife?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yep, that's another example of the lack of internal logic in the rule set:  Why is every otherwise legal use of the phone ok even with a compass on it, but not use as a DMD?

Because it's not a rule written about smart phones; it's a rule written about DMDs, a class of devices which includes laser and GPS rangefinders.

In that statement I'm not talking about any single rule, I'm talking about the rules as a whole (hence "rule set").  The rules as a whole allow you to use your phone for any legal use you want even with a compass or club-selector app installed, except for a DMD app which would otherwise also be legal.

And btw, the reason that's relevant to the current discussion about the DMD app rule is that if, as I suspect, the intent of the rule was to ban DMD apps with non-conforming features (and not base it on other apps that might be installed), then that would explain them recently clarifying the "weather app" issue. Not only that it would eliminate the illogical scenario we're currently in (of the DMD app being illegal but everything else on the device being allowed, if there are non-conforming apps installed.)

Let me anticipate the responses of, "But then the rules bodies would have to police all the DMD apps!" with this: It's an issue regardless - the rules currently allow "a dedicated DMD (GPS) device" as long as it is not "capable of measuring conditions or providing information other than distance (e.g. slope, wind, temperature or club recommendation)." So we're already in the state where we have to rely on the integrity of someone using such a GPS device to not use, for example, the club selector part of it. What's the difference between that and relying on the integrity of someone using a conforming DMD on a smart phone to not use the compass that also might exist on the device? Answer: No difference. The rules bodies understand this, which is why I've been predicting they're going to revise the rule again once they get their ducks in a row and figure out the best way to word it.