Instruction Too Technical

[Patrick57]

Hello everyone.

I've been in central Europe for just over 15 years but before that I was mainly in the place where you lot - anyone who isn't Scottish - borrowed this game from. As my forefathers invented this game I think they would be very annoyed to see what you are doing with it. This simple game  was not supposed to be technicalised.

I say leave it alone and let the tour pros get into the nitty gritty of it. Or try to tell us Scots in single or double syllable words what you are all going on about.

I love this game but some of you are rewriting the scriptures.

[Phil McGleno]

Yeah. We should all strive to look like this:

Patrick the game is passing you by and I see nothing wrong with golfers and golf instructors educating themselves. I know a lot of things and that doesn't mean I tell even a single bit of it to my students. Some yes others no.

You're going to get beat up again, and deservedly so. What works for you does not work for all. You sound like someone who stopped learning and who now thinks everyone who uses a word you dont like is just being too technical.

[iacas]

Thread renamed. Happy to rename it if you can think of something better P57 but "is it how it is in the united states or far afield" or whatever you called it made no sense.

Good luck. I'm heading down to film my swing and put in some good deep practice time. My swing will get better - measurably - today, with the technology serving to aid me in that improvement.

[Bullitt5339]

I've tried to resist commenting on any of your threads, but you never make any sense and this is no different.

Man's tendency is to try to break things down, understand them and try to figure out how to do it better.  It's in everyone's nature, whether you try to use it or not.  That's why we're not riding horses still, singing instead of watching TV, letting animals graze instead of mowing the lawn, etc.

I can't believe I let you draw me into commenting on one of your idiotic ramblings.

[Zeph]

This simple game  was not supposed to be technicalised.

Really? You happened to talk to them about this? Come on. It is inevitable. The world moves forward, everything is affected by the digital age, every sport is affected. And the technical equipment has helped us understand the swing and improve better than before. You're in denial if you believe otherwise. Sure you can overdo it and become obsessed with some of the stuff, but that's not the equipment's fault.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Yeah. We should all strive to look like this:

That's the 2nd time you've posted my swing. Say something about it or leave well alone. I suppose all the coaches in the US are great players. I've met a few and all they could do was hit nice shots, their heads were so full of mince they couldn't score for tuppence. I know my way round a golf course and a coaching session.

I'm too long in the tooth to try to convince my students that their bodies understand words regarding body movements. Using simple terms and having the skill to induce the correct movements is more than enough. I have already said I find all the intricate techno stuff boring and as I don't think it helps why should I bother.

How would you tell a student to maintain the line of compression. Its a load of guff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

You're going to get beat up again, and deservedly so. What works for you does not work for all. You sound like someone who stopped learning and who now thinks everyone who uses a word you dont like is just being too technical.

I get beat up but I try to answer my side of the argument. I haven't personally slagged anyone's swing or handicap. I have manners. I would love to show you how to score well in this game.

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Patrick the game is passing you by and I see nothing wrong with golfers and golf instructors educating themselves. I know a lot of things and that doesn't mean I tell even a single bit of it to my students. Some yes others no.

Because you think this x-ray stuff is the way to go. There are coaches who can actually instruct without knowing stuff that is uncomprehensible at a physical level. I would not tell you not to study these things but don't go into it with anyone.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

Thread renamed. Happy to rename it if you can think of something better P57 but "is it how it is in the united states or far afield" or whatever you called it made no sense.

Good luck. I'm heading down to film my swing and put in some good deep practice time. My swing will get better - measurably - today, with the technology serving to aid me in that improvement.

Yeah thanks. That's better!

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Bullitt5339

I've tried to resist commenting on any of your threads, but you never make any sense and this is no different.

Man's tendency is to try to break things down, understand them and try to figure out how to do it better.  It's in everyone's nature, whether you try to use it or not.  That's why we're not riding horses still, singing instead of watching TV, letting animals graze instead of mowing the lawn, etc.

I can't believe I let you draw me into commenting on one of your idiotic ramblings.

Yes, inventing stuff, cars, TV and lawn mowers. We can't invent how to swing. We are inventing things that let us see what happens at super slow motion. Are we getting better? No. When will we realise that this only sounds good but isn't, instead its destructive.

Golf is quickly becoming a sport where golfers are happy to say feel isn't real and no wonder when we need equipment that has nothing to do with feel.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Really? You happened to talk to them about this?

Come on. It is inevitable. The world moves forward, everything is affected by the digital age, every sport is affected. And the technical equipment has helped us understand the swing and improve better than before. You're in denial if you believe otherwise.

Sure you can overdo it and become obsessed with some of the stuff, but that's not the equipment's fault.

My point is, I have no doubt that we understand the swing more because of this equipment but we haven't learned to improve better. Who has these improvement figures? Every student who takes lessons or practices will improve most of the time but that they are improving quicker, not that I know of. My students not included.

[The_Pharaoh]

And you have the nerve to call me fat.

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

[Zeph]

I'm not an instructor, so I don't have any numbers, but I know the equipment makes it easier for dedicated golfers to improve on their own and understand their swing better. The problem on getting students to improve lies in the knowledge and skills of the instructor, not his equipment. I believe I've read the average handicap keeps dropping. A poor instructor with lots of equipment is worse than a good instructor without equipment. If you combine the good instructor with the equipment though, I believe it makes a difference. Just for the player to see his own swing helps. Then again, for the average weekend hacker, it might not matter, but for many, golf is more than just a hobby. They want to improve and the equipment can help them do that. I don't believe it is preventing them from improving.

[Bullitt5339]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Yes, inventing stuff, cars, TV and lawn mowers. We can't invent how to swing. We are inventing things that let us see what happens at super slow motion. Are we getting better? No. When will we realise that this only sounds good but isn't, instead its destructive.

Golf is quickly becoming a sport where golfers are happy to say feel isn't real and no wonder when we need equipment that has nothing to do with feel.

I disagree....  The inventions both inside and outside of the game of golf have improved the way everyone plays.  Why shouldn't understanding and breaking down the swing and understanding exactly what is happening, and more important, why it is happening.  Now, I don't have a full understanding of everything there is to a proper golf swing, but videotaping myself in high definition and using programs to slow things down to see exactly where I went wrong can't do anything but help improve someone's game.

You should know as well as anyone that "feel" in the swing isn't really what's going on.  In order to make changes, you have to realize what you are doing, and then typically have to exaggerate the movement in order to "feel" the change.

We can't "invent" how to swing, but we can analyze faults in people's swing using such technology.  All of the good changes in my game have come from seeing what I was doing wrong, not feeling what I was doing wrong.  There's no way that I or most mid-handicappers can "feel" everything they do wrong.  Some of my best feeling swings have resulted in the worst shots.  By breaking down the swing into different quadrants, it allows us to work on one piece at a time and see the difference as we do small things right.  Start with the big things and continue to improve from there.

This is where the proper instruction comes in.  You can't just dump an entire swing theory on me in one lesson, I'll end up getting all screwed up and not hitting the ball at all.  We start at the beginning and concentrate on one thing at a time, analyzing as we go.  Once my take-away is where my instructor wants it, we'll add in one more thing.  Small differences is all it takes to work towards those "over-complicated" swing patterns.  You can't rebuild a swing overnight and dump all the info on a student, it's a process.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

And you have the nerve to call me fat.

I don't have a weight problem Tutankhamun.

Its no problem, the more I eat the fatter I get!

P.S. Camera's do lie!

[inthehole]

Patrick, as a fellow new guy here & one with red hair of like Scottish decent, you might want to cool it & blend in instead of stirring the pot.    You have your ideas, which are a bit polarizing considering the company you're in here.     Look around you, these are not students you're preaching too - these are established serious players & not guys that play company outings a few times a year ... many of whom have been playing a long time & are well educated on matters of golf.    It's ok to post your outside the box thoughts, but not ok to try to convince everyone that it's valid (again, considering the audience your addressing).

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Bullitt5339

I disagree....  The inventions both inside and outside of the game of golf have improved the way everyone plays.  Why shouldn't understanding and breaking down the swing and understanding exactly what is happening, and more important, why it is happening.  Now, I don't have a full understanding of everything there is to a proper golf swing, but videotaping myself in high definition and using programs to slow things down to see exactly where I went wrong can't do anything but help improve someone's game.

It doesn't quite work like that. It takes many hours to make the smallest change to any swing characteristic but that one change, handled incorrectly, can lead to the detriment of 3 or 4 other characteristics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt5339

You should know as well as anyone that "feel" in the swing isn't really what's going on.  In order to make changes, you have to realize what you are doing, and then typically have to exaggerate the movement in order to "feel" the change.

The feel can be made real using NJF. The student gives feedback for what he is feeling and the coach agrees or disagrees with what he is feeling. Rather quickly the student's feel becomes real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt5339

This is where the proper instruction comes in.  You can't just dump an entire swing theory on me in one lesson, I'll end up getting all screwed up and not hitting the ball at all.  We start at the beginning and concentrate on one thing at a time, analyzing as we go.  Once my take-away is where my instructor wants it, we'll add in one more thing.  Small differences is all it takes to work towards those "over-complicated" swing patterns.  You can't rebuild a swing overnight and dump all the info on a student, it's a process.

I would prefer to say when my swing is where I want it and not where the instructor wants it. Apart from that I agree with this paragraph.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by inthehole

Patrick, as a fellow new guy here & one with red hair of like Scottish decent, you might want to cool it & blend in instead of stirring the pot.    You have your ideas, which are a bit polarizing considering the company you're in here.     Look around you, these are not students you're preaching too - these are established serious players & not guys that play company outings a few times a year ... many of whom have been playing a long time & are well educated on matters of golf.    It's ok to post your outside the box thoughts, but not ok to try to convince everyone that it's valid (again, considering the audience your addressing).

.

Thank you. I'll bear that in mind

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I'm not an instructor, so I don't have any numbers, but I know the equipment makes it easier for dedicated golfers to improve on their own and understand their swing better.

The problem on getting students to improve lies in the knowledge and skills of the instructor, not his equipment. I believe I've read the average handicap keeps dropping. A poor instructor with lots of equipment is worse than a good instructor without equipment. If you combine the good instructor with the equipment though, I believe it makes a difference. Just for the player to see his own swing helps.

Then again, for the average weekend hacker, it might not matter, but for many, golf is more than just a hobby. They want to improve and the equipment can help them do that. I don't believe it is preventing them from improving.

I do use a camera, of course, it helps used correctly.

People are hitting the ball better, further and straighter but on average they are not scoring better.

I can only speak from my experience and I think that the studies of the intricacies at modern levels only confuse the handicap golfer. They sure confuse me and I know the swing rather well. I start to read about these things and think, stop, because I know once I understand it I'm going to instruct my student using this geeky stuff. Our bodies - muscles, joints, tendons - don't understand verbal commands and to complicate these even more is nonsensical.

[Bullitt5339]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

The feel can be made real using NJF. The student gives feedback for what he is feeling and the coach agrees or disagrees with what he is feeling. Rather quickly the student's feel becomes real.

I would prefer to say when my swing is where I want it and not where the instructor wants it. Apart from that I agree with this paragraph.

You are in the minority, I think.  When I pay good money for lessons, I don't want the instructor to ask me what I'm doing wrong, I want him to tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it and then typically he'll have me exaggerate the movement so that I can feel the difference, work on a few drills where I want and expect to be critiqued on what I'm doing.

I'm not paying an instructor to listen to me, I'm paying him to make changes to my swing so that I improve.  I went from a 24 handicap to a 14 after taking 3 lessons on my iron swing and a single short-game lesson, because I was having trouble hitting GIR's.  There was definitely no Non-Judgemental feedback going on either, and I appreciated the no B.S. approach to trying to make me better.  I am going back to him for a few lessons on Driver and Fairway woods, since that's what I need to get into the single digits now.