What would you do if you found the Thief?

[camper6]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

This is just getting stupid.  To bring up rape at all is completely ridiculous.

It is simple.  In our society today, not everyone is honest and trustworthy and does the right thing.  If I LOSE something, I don't expect it to find it's way back to me.  If I LOST it, I have no one else to blame but myself, regardless of what ultimately happened to whatever I lost.  That seems crystal clear to me.  I have never had a club "stolen" from me because I have never LOST one.

It is not a question of whether a person deserves the potential outcome of his actions, it's simply recognizing that possibility - and the only way to be sure to avoid it is be more careful and responsible yourself.

And what if I am not careful and responsible?

Do I still 'deserve' to have someone pick up my club and keep it?

My son left his clubs out one night after the pro shop was closed not realizing it was closed.

The clubs were still there the next morning.  Now he was not careful and not responsible but the people that walked by them were careful and responsible and didn't take them home.

So your idea of careful and responsible are different than mine.

A cart goes over a bump and a putter falls off.  Does the golfer 'deserve' to lose that club if someone else finds it?

I'm glad you don't golf at our club.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by camper6

And what if I am not careful and responsible?

Do I still 'deserve' to have someone pick up my club and keep it?

My son left his clubs out one night after the pro shop was closed not realizing it was closed.

The clubs were still there the next morning.  Now he was not careful and not responsible but the people that walked by them were careful and responsible and didn't take them home.

So your idea of careful and responsible are different than mine.

A cart goes over a bump and a putter falls off.  Does the golfer 'deserve' to lose that club if someone else finds it?

I'm glad you don't golf at our club.

I'm glad I don't golf at your club either.  Thanks.

To be clear, I would never take anything that doesn't belong to me.  That doesn't mean I expect everything I lose to be returned.  Some people here seem to have a hard time understanding that.   Thinking a lost club is gone does not mean I steal....good lord.

If you are not careful and responsible and you lose things or leave them places unattended, you increase the likelihood that the item(s) may be taken.  This whole notion of whether or not one deserves a certain outcome is just dumb.  I have never said anyone deserves anything for losing a club.

I don't know what else to say.  I have been extremely lucky to some I guess.  I don't think it takes a lot to keep your golf clubs from being stolen.

[Moxie Dawn]

Hi. Before I start, just some quick info. I don't play golf. But as a friend of Zipazoid, and a very indulgent one, I know way too much about golf for someone who doesn't play it. I find myself watching tournaments because, let's face it, I'm nearly badgered into it, and I also find myself reading these forums all the time. I do this because I'm a nice girl and I like to encourage my friend's passion. Still, it would have never occurred to me to join a golf forum until I read this:

Originally Posted by mdl

Exactly.  Sounds sort of like, "Well, if she hadn't been so careless and been showing so much leg, the rapist wouldn't have interested in the first place.  Not that raping her was the right, but she was careless with her equipment, so she deserves what she got."

Wow. Seriously, it's a rare moment when one gets punched in the face so hard by stupidity that it causes a visceral reaction. But like I say, I'm a nice girl so I'm going to actually work with this. Watch me go! Let's say Zip got himself a fancy new set of clubs. Some kind of cutting-edge protype with gold plated shafts and platinum club heads and magic fairy dust embedded in the grips, and he takes those clubs out to the public course and shows them off and brags about them, and then some yahoo, probably some of my kinfolk, covet those fancy clubs so much they actually assault him and rip them right out of his hands. And then let's say some moron says, "Oh well, if you didn't take those clubs to the course they wouldn't be stolen. Sucks to be you." That might be close to your girl in the short skirt deserving to get raped. Except not really, because most people don't equate the value of a wedge to the value of a vagina. And besides that, the comparison doesn't even remotely address the topic.

As to the topic, my mother taught me something when I was little and wanted to take my favorite toy with me everywhere. She told me to keep up with it. Because if I lose it, it's gone. If someone takes it, it's gone. It's my job to keep up with it. We may all love the idea of the world treating us fairly, but it doesn't. Get used to it.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

This is just getting stupid.  To bring up rape at all is completely ridiculous.

It is not a question of whether a person deserves the potential outcome of his actions, it's simply recognizing that possibility - and the only way to be sure to avoid it is be more careful and responsible yourself.

Actually, it's not ridiculous.  It is the exact same principle that was introduced by the "you get what you deserve" mantra.  It has logical extensions, and anybody who lives by that code should be prepared to deal with them.  And it is a question of whether they deserve that outcome, because that is exactly what has been suggested.  And it was also implied long before that when people were excusing the theft precisely because somebody else was careless or negligent.

Originally Posted by Moxie Dawn

That might be close to your girl in the short skirt deserving to get raped. Except not really, because most people don't equate the value of a wedge to the value of a vagina. And besides that, the comparison doesn't even remotely address the topic.

As to the topic, my mother taught me something when I was little and wanted to take my favorite toy with me everywhere. She told me to keep up with it. Because if I lose it, it's gone. If someone takes it, it's gone. It's my job to keep up with it. We may all love the idea of the world treating us fairly, but it doesn't. Get used to it.

Actually, it directly addresses the topic.  You just illustrated the same exact point.

And again, your last paragraph is a strawman argument.  Saying the world isn't fair and all those other philosophical cliches do NOT address the topic of whether or not a illegal or criminal act is justified simply because somebody is careless or negligent.  All of the word manipulation in the world doesn't stray the argument away from the merits of that issue.

Brandon

[Moxie Dawn]

Wrong, but nice try. Allow me...

I'm a chick and  I go out and allow myself too much to drink so my judgement is off and I end up going home with some guy and the next day I regret it. That's the same thing as carelessly leaving a club on the course. It isn't anything at all like rape.

Nobody thinks it is OK to pick up something that isn't yours and take it home, but it doesn't change the fact that YOU are responsible for your own stuff.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Actually, it's not ridiculous.  It is the exact same principle that was introduced by the "you get what you deserve" mantra.  It has logical extensions, and anybody who lives by that code should be prepared to deal with them.  And it is a question of whether they deserve that outcome, because that is exactly what has been suggested.  And it was also implied long before that when people were excusing the theft precisely because somebody else was careless or negligent.

No, sorry, it's just stupid and tasteless.  And not a logical extension at all.

Even if I (or anyone else) believed that if you lose a club, you deserve to never get it back....  That in NO WAY WHATSOEVER means I (or that person) believes that anyone ever deserves to be raped.  My gosh, man....  There is NO logic there.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Moxie Dawn

Wrong, but nice try. Allow me...

I'm a chick and  I go out and allow myself too much to drink so my judgement is off and I end up going home with some guy and the next day I regret it. That's the same thing as carelessly leaving a club on the course. It isn't anything at all like rape.

Nobody thinks it is OK to pick up something that isn't yours and take it home, but it doesn't change the fact that YOU are responsible for your own stuff.

Welcome to TST, Mox - where some people equate picking up a lost wedge and keeping it to rape.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Welcome to TST, Mox - where some people equate picking up a lost wedge and keeping it to rape.

And where others try to absolve some of the blame from thieves because they are tempted by others' carelessnes.

And where some have female friends who refer to themselves as "chicks".

You can learn a lot, can't you?

[Moxie Dawn]

Originally Posted by Shorty

And where others try to absolve some of the blame from thieves because they are tempted by others' carelessnes.

And where some have female friends who refer to themselves as "chicks".

You can learn a lot, can't you?

Please educate me on what you learned from that.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

This whole notion of whether or not one deserves a certain outcome is just dumb.  I have never said anyone deserves anything for losing a club.

Nobody said you said - because you didn't ... But that is EXACTLY what Zip said and that is why we are discussing this.

[camper6]

I'm glad I don't golf at your club either.  Thanks.



To be clear, I would never take anything that doesn't belong to me.  That doesn't mean I expect everything I lose to be returned.  Some people here seem to have a hard time understanding that.   Thinking a lost club is gone does not mean I steal....good lord.

That's not the way you put it the first time around.


If you are not careful and responsible and you lose things or leave them places unattended, you increase the likelihood that the item(s) may be taken.  This whole notion of whether or not one deserves a certain outcome is just dumb.  I have never said anyone deserves anything for losing a club.

Not in so many words but yes that was the gist of your argument.



I don't know what else to say.  I have been extremely lucky to some I guess.  I don't think it takes a lot to keep your golf clubs from being stolen.

Forget about rape.

O.K. Your grandmother goes shopping and leaves her purse in the shopping cart.  She loses all her pension money and is now broke.

Did she 'deserve' to be broke?  You see in my estimation people have a moral obligation to return that which is lost and not theirs.  To say you have to be careful is true.  But we are talking golf courses now , not back alleys.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Nobody said you said - because you didn't ... But that is EXACTLY what Zip said and that is why we are discussing this.

OK.  I think he later clarified, but let's go with that for sake of argument.  He thinks that if you lose something, you deserve to have it not returned to you (or even "stolen").  I don't agree with that (although I can see where he is coming from).

What is dumb here is many seem to think that automatically makes Zip a thief, and in some completely sick way, some think he must believe a woman deserves to be raped....WTF!?

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by camper6

That's not the way you put it the first time around.

Not in so many words but yes that was the gist of your argument.

Forget about rape.

O.K. Your grandmother goes shopping and leaves her purse in the shopping cart.  She loses all her pension money and is now broke.

Did she 'deserve' to be broke?  You see in my estimation people have a moral obligation to return that which is lost and not theirs.  To say you have to be careful is true.  But we are talking golf courses now , not back alleys.

Please find where I said someone deserves to have a club stolen that they lose.  That is in no way the gist of my argument, nor ever has been.

Yes, we're talking golf courses, so why the comparisons to rape and grandparents losing pensions?  Once again, I'm not saying, nor have ever said, anyone deserves any specific result for any specific action...  That is an irrelevant debate...  All these hypotheticals and accusations are beyond ridiculous.

[Moxie Dawn]

It's kinda two different situations being mashed together. The first situation, "What is the appropriate action if you find a stray club on the golf course?" The second situation, "What is the appropriate action if you lose a club and suspect someone may have it?" You're talking about two different people and those two people's separate choices and responsibilities.

First situation, most would agree the appropriate response would be to turn the club in at the clubhouse or the pro shop and hope the owner is able to come back for it. That's an ethical choice.

Second situation, if you can't prove it is yours the most you can do is inquire. If you're lucky, the person will be favorable to giving you the club. If you're not, what are you gonna do, start a fight over a club you can't even prove is yours? And that someone else suggested, they may have even bought off someone else not knowing it was a lost club?

Story time. Once upon a time I was in the third grade and I let a friend at school wear my ring. Then later when I wanted my ring I couldn't find it. I accused her of keeping it. Hounded her about it for days. Told other people she stole it. You see where this is going, right? A week later I found it hanging on a cup hook at the kitchen sink where I had taken it off to wash dishes. That was third grade. I'm 42 years old and still regret it every time I think about it. So I wouldn't recommend going around wildly accusing people of stealing something which you misplaced. Especially because you might be wrong, and also because the person you are really angry with is...you.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Nobody said you said - because you didn't ... But that is EXACTLY what Zip said and that is why we are discussing this.

Uh, no it isn't.

One more time, cuz stating it 4 times apparently didn't sink in, I said those that are careless with their equipment deserves whatever happens as a result of their carelessness.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Shorty

And where others try to absolve some of the blame from thieves because they are tempted by others' carelessnes.

And where some have female friends who refer to themselves as "chicks".

You can learn a lot, can't you?

Only if you pay attention, which you aren't.

I didn't absolve anyone of anything. Find it. Prove me wrong.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Uh, no it isn't.

One more time, cuz stating it 4 times apparently didn't sink in, I said those that are careless with their equipment deserves whatever happens as a result of their carelessness.

You said that I was wrong about what you said, which was that careless people "deserve what they get" - and then you "corrected" me by saying that careless people deserve what they get.

What am I missing here?  (Maybe if you say it 5 times I'll get it)

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Only if you pay attention, which you aren't.

I didn't absolve anyone of anything. Find it. Prove me wrong.

We are all paying attention, I can assure you.  You've said several times that careless people deserve what they get.  You also said that a person who leaves his car unlocked and it gets stolen "shares in the blame" for that theft.  That is absolving the thief.  And, incidentally, that is the analogy that got me thinking about the rape analogy (even though I wasn't the first to actually make it).  The only thing the unlocked car does is make it slightly easier and more tempting for the thief, just as the only thing the short skirt does is make it slightly more tempting for the rapist, just as the unattended club makes it slightly easier for the club thief.  The rape victim and car theft victim (and golf club theft victim) all share the same amount of blame for what happened to them ... zero.