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BrokeLoser

Got fitted...Lie angle...swing speed...I'm confused

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So, I finally went and got fitted....here goes.

Got fitted at Roger Dunn, guy seemed to know what he was talking about...(spoke very matter of fact with the utmost confidence)

Anyway, nothing really seemed like rocket science to me. Swung a few different 6 irons about 10 times each and a driver about 10 times.

Results:

95 mph swing speed

Fitter recommended a +1.5 - +2.25 upright lie angle for irons. (ping g15 yellow or green dot)

Stiff shaft, he said I'm on the border of stiff and regular flex.

My confusion:

How do I know or trust that my swing was my 'normal' swing for those 40 or so shots?

I normally hit 80 - 100 balls before a round to loosen up and 'find' my swing.

With me being a 15 handi and my swing still inconsistent and changing is lie angle really that important? Would I be better off starting with black dot irons or neutral lie angle until my swing becomes more consistent? My 95mph swing speed puts me on the border or stiff and regular flex...why go stiff and not regular? I tend to hit the ball a little right with my irons...could stiff make it worse?

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Why bother to get fit if you won't listen to the fitter? Sounds like he's trying to set you up with the right clubs.
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Originally Posted by xxsoultonesxx

Why bother to get fit if you won't listen to the fitter?

Sounds like he's trying to set you up with the right clubs.

the process just seemed a little 'loose' with lots of room for error. I guess I was expecting something a little more scientific. going in I had no idea what the process entailed.

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I'd say the lie angle you were given was about right.  While I agree you need some time to loosen up, I have heard stories (not very scientific I know) of golfers adjusting after a number of shots to the iron that is in their hand.  Give anybody a 6 iron, either in 2 degree upright or flat, and let them hit 100 balls (to take the example to the extreme) and they will adjust to the club.

As for the driver.....I have been told, though I rarely adhere to the advice, you should swing about 80%.  To me that means you are in your wheel house after about 5 swings, and "stepping on" a fitted shaft MIGHT get you into the slightly floppy territory.  Better to err on the weak side of flex than the stiff side.  Of course that doesn't include transition, wrist angle, angle of attack, overall feel, launch angle....

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95 with a driver I assume...

So you went in cold and pured it at 95?  If you can effectively repeat your swing it may only take 5 min. if your loose.  I have fit players in 10 swings, and I have tried to fit hacks over the course of 4 hours.  True.

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Originally Posted by Chris Prosser

95 with a driver I assume...

So you went in cold and pured it at 95?  If you can effectively repeat your swing it may only take 5 min. if your loose.  I have fit players in 10 swings, and I have tried to fit hacks over the course of 4 hours.  True.

yeah, 95 with an r11s driver

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Originally Posted by BrokeLoser

the process just seemed a little 'loose' with lots of room for error. I guess I was expecting something a little more scientific. going in I had no idea what the process entailed.

Well as an 18 handicap your swing isn't gonna be the exact same everytime right? so thats why there is room error.  Unless you have the exact swing every single time they aren't gonna be able to nail down your exact numbers.

Trust your fitter they know what they are doing.  I recently got fitted had my clubs extended .5 inches and 1° upright they didn't work miracles right away but after I got used to them they were a lot more comfortable.

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For me lie angle has been incredibly consistent over the years.  2 degrees flat as long as I can remember.  I would imagine your lie is pretty consistent too.  I think going 2 degrees up with a stiff shaft is a pretty safe bet.

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Lie angle is fairly stable in golfers - even beginners who have just a few weeks of experience. I used flat for 30+ years until I made a major swing change and came in more upright.

If you're really bothered, you might go to a different shop and have them check you out. Note: did the fitter use a launch monitor, impact tape (face and sole), or all of the above?

I went to a clubfitting school this spring, and Clubfitting Law #1 was this: Clubfitting involves trade-offs. If you go with Stiff shafts, you'll have better control. If you go with Regular, you'll get better distance, and could use a smoother swing tempo if you can't play much. You could always split the difference, and have the clubfitter softstep the shaft for you (between R and S). If you're in fairly good shape, you should be able to handle the stiff.

Either way, if you get clubs fitted for you, that will increase your number of "center hits" on the clubface. Maybe clubfitter figures you will "cross the line" as your swing grows into the clubs.

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Originally Posted by WUTiger

Lie angle is fairly stable in golfers - even beginners who have just a few weeks of experience. I used flat for 30+ years until I made a major swing change and came in more upright.

If you're really bothered, you might go to a different shop and have them check you out. Note: did the fitter use a launch monitor, impact tape (face and sole), or all of the above?

I went to a clubfitting school this spring, and Clubfitting Law #1 was this: Clubfitting involves trade-offs. If you go with Stiff shafts, you'll have better control. If you go with Regular, you'll get better distance, and could use a smoother swing tempo if you can't play much. You could always split the difference, and have the clubfitter softstep the shaft for you (between R and S). If you're in fairly good shape, you should be able to handle the stiff.

Either way, if you get clubs fitted for you, that will increase your number of "center hits" on the clubface. Maybe clubfitter figures you will "cross the line" as your swing grows into the clubs.

How do they "stiffen" or "loosen" the shafts? I know when I had my driver and 3W shortened he added a little weight to the butt end of the shaft. Is this common practice? I had a free fitting when I purchased my new iron set and the guy didn't want to change anything except to stiffen the shafts, but I haven't gone back in and that was only my 6-iron. He didn't have me test any other clubs.

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Originally Posted by GatorCallaway

How do they "stiffen" or "loosen" the shafts? I know when I had my driver and 3W shortened he added a little weight to the butt end of the shaft. Is this common practice? I had a free fitting when I purchased my new iron set and the guy didn't want to change anything except to stiffen the shafts, but I haven't gone back in and that was only my 6-iron. He didn't have me test any other clubs.


WU Tiger will be able to explain better but, in short, it has to do with the amount you cut off the tip of each raw shaft before you cut them to length and glue them together.  If you cut more than standard, it makes the shaft stiffer than normal.  Conversely, cutting less from the tip makes the shaft "softer".

As to adding weight to the butt end of your driver and 3W after shortening them, I don't get that.  Cutting an inch will drop the swingweight about 6 points (D6 to D0, for example).  He should have added weight to the head to compensate for the shorter length, if he wanted to maintain the same swingweight.

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i wouldnt go to a place like that. they usually just want to pump you thought and make a sale. go to  a pro or even search a place that is respectable like a place called Cool Clubs. try going to different pros that will give you a subjective opinion.

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Originally Posted by Harmonious

WU Tiger will be able to explain better but, in short, it has to do with the amount you cut off the tip of each raw shaft before you cut them to length and glue them together.  If you cut more than standard, it makes the shaft stiffer than normal.  Conversely, cutting less from the tip makes the shaft "softer".

As to adding weight to the butt end of your driver and 3W after shortening them, I don't get that.  Cutting an inch will drop the swingweight about 6 points (D6 to D0, for example).  He should have added weight to the head to compensate for the shorter length, if he wanted to maintain the same swingweight.

Harmonious explained the basic process well. For details, each shaft comes with a "trim code" that tells you how to trim it both for the club (Driver vs. 3W).

For graphite and iron shafts, manufacturers normally make one shaft for each flex, with trim codes for each flex version. A skilled clubsmith can trim a club to go between flexes: If an R-flex shaft says don't trim for a driver, you can stiffen the shaft by cutting, say, 2 inches off the tip so that the thicker part of the shaft is emphasized.

Some shafts, such as Project X flighted steel, come precut from the shaft maker and ready to install. Other shafts for irons generally come uncut, and the clubsmith does tip and butt trims according to trim codes for that shaft model.

For irons, there's lots of talk of hard-stepping or soft-stepping iron sets. Stepping affects he shaft by about one-third a flex. For a hardstep (stiffens flex), you put a 4-iron tipped shaft into a 3i, a 5-iron tipped into a 4i, etc. For a softstep (softens flex), you put a 2-iron tipped shaft into a 3i, 6-iron tipped into a 7i, etc.

For both hardstep and softstep, the clubsmith gets the club to standard length after the tip-shifting the shafts. (Softstepping is easiest, because you can trim the 2-iron tipped shaft to 3i length. For hardstepping, if  you're using existing shafts pulled from the irons, you may have to lengthen each by a half inch.)

All this should hint at the benefits of a detailed clubfitting for someone with a reasonably stable - not necessarily excellent - swing.

----------------------------

Adding weight to the butt: this is called counterweighting. Back in the 1970s, some stronger players would put a fishing weight in the butt end of their shafts - especially drivers - to quiet their hands. This was mostly hit and miss back then.

Fastforward, Golfsmith did a study on counterweighting in 2004.

Here is a summary from another site. http://espn.golfsmith.com/display_page?page_num=cm_lp_mag0208_gca_insider_counterbalancing

I had a 4-gram plug in the driver shafter after I added a Harrison Shotmaker insert. I seemed to get a little better handdrop with the counterweighting. From what I heard at recent demo days, club makers are considering counterweighting for clubs with very lightweight graphite shafts (50 grams and under) to reestablish balance feel of the club.

Club designer Ralph Maltby avoids counterweighting because he says it increase clubweight and slows clubhead speed. If you shorten a shaft by 1/2", this drops swingweight -3. If you lengthen a shaft by 1/2", this increases swingweight +3.

Basically, if you don't know what you're doing, you can mess up a nice set of clubs by sawing on the shafts.

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As a current employee at Golf Galaxy while finishing up school, this "fitting" craze that has come about these last couple of years is quite ridiculous.  If you're anywhere near a bogey golfer, you have no business being fit, except knowing which shaft flex is most appropriate.  To adjust a lie angle for someone who does not have a consistent swing is a complete mistake.  I have customers that come in and ask for a fitting because the Golf Channel said it was important, but they have absolutely no idea what it concerns.  These types of customers cannot hit the ball in the same spot consistently.  The face tape and lie angle tape is scattered with black marks after just 5 hits, with some balls slicing, hooking, and others chunked.  Then they're appalled when I tell them nicely that they should consider lessons before investing in clubs or that they should just get standard clubs.  You do not need a fitting if you're an inconsistent golfer, because inconsistent and being fit are at two opposite ends of the spectrum.  It used to be the issue of it's not me, it's the club, now the saying is, it's not me it's a proper fitting that will lower my game 18 strokes.  When you hit on the lie board and not only hit the ball in the air, but the lie board 10 feet as well, you need to re-evaluate your persistence on asking for a fitting.  I'd say 1 out of 15 golfers that I fit are somewhat consistent, the others being fit on the ball launch monitor have to have the net pulled between their mat and the other to the side because they shank the ball repeatedly, almost killing someone.

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Originally Posted by UFGators

As a current employee at Golf Galaxy while finishing up school, this "fitting" craze that has come about these last couple of years is quite ridiculous.  If you're anywhere near a bogey golfer, you have no business being fit, except knowing which shaft flex is most appropriate.  To adjust a lie angle for someone who does not have a consistent swing is a complete mistake.  I have customers that come in and ask for a fitting because the Golf Channel said it was important, but they have absolutely no idea what it concerns.  These types of customers cannot hit the ball in the same spot consistently.  The face tape and lie angle tape is scattered with black marks after just 5 hits, with some balls slicing, hooking, and others chunked.  Then they're appalled when I tell them nicely that they should consider lessons before investing in clubs or that they should just get standard clubs.  You do not need a fitting if you're an inconsistent golfer, because inconsistent and being fit are at two opposite ends of the spectrum.  It used to be the issue of it's not me, it's the club, now the saying is, it's not me it's a proper fitting that will lower my game 18 strokes.  When you hit on the lie board and not only hit the ball in the air, but the lie board 10 feet as well, you need to re-evaluate your persistence on asking for a fitting.  I'd say 1 out of 15 golfers that I fit are somewhat consistent, the others being fit on the ball launch monitor have to have the net pulled between their mat and the other to the side because they shank the ball repeatedly, almost killing someone.

^^^^  Absolute garbage.  No offense.

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As a current employee at Golf Galaxy while finishing up school, this "fitting" craze that has come about these last couple of years is quite ridiculous.  If you're anywhere near a bogey golfer, you have no business being fit, except knowing which shaft flex is most appropriate.  To adjust a lie angle for someone who does not have a consistent swing is a complete mistake.  I have customers that come in and ask for a fitting because the Golf Channel said it was important, but they have absolutely no idea what it concerns.  These types of customers cannot hit the ball in the same spot consistently.  The face tape and lie angle tape is scattered with black marks after just 5 hits, with some balls slicing, hooking, and others chunked.  Then they're appalled when I tell them nicely that they should consider lessons before investing in clubs or that they should just get standard clubs.  You do not need a fitting if you're an inconsistent golfer, because inconsistent and being fit are at two opposite ends of the spectrum.  It used to be the issue of it's not me, it's the club, now the saying is, it's not me it's a proper fitting that will lower my game 18 strokes.  When you hit on the lie board and not only hit the ball in the air, but the lie board 10 feet as well, you need to re-evaluate your persistence on asking for a fitting.  I'd say 1 out of 15 golfers that I fit are somewhat consistent, the others being fit on the ball launch monitor have to have the net pulled between their mat and the other to the side because they shank the ball repeatedly, almost killing someone.

Here's my take from someone who's a crappy golfer. I'm Probably not as bad as you described but not much better. Maybe I'm of on this and if I am you can tell me but I disagree with what your saying. I'm 6'3 and fairly new to golf. I get a good deal on a nice set of irons. I buy them but find sometimes Im lights out other times I should just stay home. I play for fun. That being said I have no desire to be a great golfer but I'd be happy being consistently decent. So one day I decide I'm going to start paying more attention to why I'm so inconsistent. I think I find that I'm struggling with keeping my clubs down. I go get measured and find I need a +1" shaft. Now I know my clubs are for sure short I go to the range and pay attention to how I'm addressing the ball. I feel that where I'm struggling to stay consistently under the ball is how I'm not always( for the lack of better ways to say it ) squatting or bending at the same height. I played around with a +1" club and while I didn't play a round but hit some balls it sure felt a whole bunch better. I know its not the answer to everything but it sure makes it easier to do when your using equipment that actually fits. It's like trying to run a marathon in shoes that are 3 sizes to small. I hope any of that ramble makes sense.

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Originally Posted by UFGators

As a current employee at Golf Galaxy while finishing up school, this "fitting" craze that has come about these last couple of years is quite ridiculous.  If you're anywhere near a bogey golfer, you have no business being fit, except knowing which shaft flex is most appropriate.  To adjust a lie angle for someone who does not have a consistent swing is a complete mistake.  I have customers that come in and ask for a fitting because the Golf Channel said it was important, but they have absolutely no idea what it concerns.  These types of customers cannot hit the ball in the same spot consistently.  The face tape and lie angle tape is scattered with black marks after just 5 hits, with some balls slicing, hooking, and others chunked.  Then they're appalled when I tell them nicely that they should consider lessons before investing in clubs or that they should just get standard clubs.  You do not need a fitting if you're an inconsistent golfer, because inconsistent and being fit are at two opposite ends of the spectrum.  It used to be the issue of it's not me, it's the club, now the saying is, it's not me it's a proper fitting that will lower my game 18 strokes.  When you hit on the lie board and not only hit the ball in the air, but the lie board 10 feet as well, you need to re-evaluate your persistence on asking for a fitting.  I'd say 1 out of 15 golfers that I fit are somewhat consistent, the others being fit on the ball launch monitor have to have the net pulled between their mat and the other to the side because they shank the ball repeatedly, almost killing someone.

Well, I'm not sure what to believe but after going through the process your post makes perfect sense to me which is why I posted this thread to begin with......hmmmm

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UFGators' post makes a lot of sense, although some will take offense.  But it's true, unless you can hit the ball fairly consistently, there is no reason to go to the trouble and expense of getting fitted.  If you have an  inconsistent swing that doesn't allow you to hit the ball semi-decently, any irons you get fit for will only fit that inconsistent swing.  If and/or when you improve and somehow develop a better swing, then you will have to go through the fitting process again.

Far better at the early stages of learning the game to take some lessons, to the point that you can return the clubhead to the ball. Until then, any old set of irons will do, even if they are a little too long or a little too short. Sure, ill fit clubs may make your shots go one way or the other, but until they consistently go that way, getting fit is a waste.

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