second ball on tee

[audi2000]

on a par 3 185yd one of the players hit a ball and we're pretty sure it went into stream which runs in front of green. He opts to hit another ball and I ask, I'm a relatively new player, if he's taking a provisional. He says no and he's hitting 2. I've been scroing myself so that Iif I call provisional and find my ball then I'm playing 2. Where if I don't call provisional I've been hitting 3 off the tee. I think he's right and just want to clear things up.

[Rulesman]

When he hit the second ball without declaring it a provisional he was playing 3.

Rule 27-1a . Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke , play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance

or

26-1 . Relief For Ball In Water Hazard

If it is known or virtually certain that a ball is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke :

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 );

[audi2000]

Thanks Rulesman,

He is a much better golfer and has been playing for decades, interesting. Why not play every ball you think may be lost as a provisional? At least there's a chance you find your 1st ball and only are hitting 2.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by audi2000

Thanks Rulesman,

He is a much better golfer and has been playing for decades, interesting. Why not play every ball you think may be lost as a provisional? At least there's a chance you find your 1st ball and only are hitting 2.

If the ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, then a provisional ball is not allowed.  There must be a possibility that the ball is lost outside of a water hazard for a player to invoke Rule 27-2: Provisional Ball.  In the case above, as you have laid it out, the player was not entitled to play a provisional ball.  When he played the second ball that became the ball in play and he incurred a penalty stroke, thus when that ball came to rest, he was lying 3.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If the ball is thought to be lost in a water hazard, then a provisional ball is not allowed.

There must be a possibility that the ball is lost outside of a water hazard for a player to invoke Rule 27-2:

The first sentence is not what the rule says. The second is.

A provisional may be played if the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be OOB.

'Thought' is not 'known'.

In the OP, the words 'pretty sure' suggests there may be some doubt.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

The first sentence is not what the rule says. The second is.

A provisional may be played if the ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be OOB.

'Thought' is not 'known'.

In the OP, the words 'pretty sure' suggests there may be some doubt.

I know the rule as well as you do.  I read it as there was some doubt that it might be in the water hazard, but that it was only lost if it was in the hazard.  I've been in situations many times where I wasn't certain if the ball was in a hazard, but was certain that if it wasn't then there was no terrain in the area in which it could be lost - it was either in the hazard or it would be playable.  That is how I read the scenario.

[Rulesman]

Fourputt

I know (KVC?) that you know the rule. I was a bit concerned about your choice of words given that the OP says 'pretty sure'. That to my mind is not enough to prohibit the playing of a provisional.

[Yukari]

This is one of the most common mistakes that weekend duffers make.  If you are certain that the ball is NOT lost but could be in a hazard, you CAN NOT play a "provisional ball".  It is either in the hazard or it is not.  If you play another shot off the tee, then you are declaring that ball in play and have abandoned the other one, so you hit 3 off the tee--even if you find that the ball is NOT in the hazard after all.

Now if you think it may be lost or in the hazard (i.e., not sure of which), then you can declare hitting a provisional ball.  If there is no likelihood of being lost but the question is only whether it it in the hazard or not, then you cannot play a provisional ball.  As soon as you hit another ball off the tee, you declare that you have abandoned the first tee shot.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Yukari

This is one of the most common mistakes that weekend duffers make.  If you are certain that the ball is NOT lost but could be in a hazard, you CAN NOT play a "provisional ball".  It is either in the hazard or it is not.  If you play another shot off the tee, then you are declaring that ball in play and have abandoned the other one, so you hit 3 off the tee--even if you find that the ball is NOT in the hazard after all.

Now if you think it may be lost or in the hazard (i.e., not sure of which), then you can declare hitting a provisional ball.  If there is no likelihood of being lost but the question is only whether it it in the hazard or not, then you cannot play a provisional ball.  As soon as you hit another ball off the tee, you declare that you have abandoned the first tee shot.

Yes.  This is essentially what I was trying to say.  It's how I read the scenario without trying to add something that didn't seem to be there.  My home course is pretty good about following the USGA guidelines for course marking, to wit:  They mark any deep grass leading into or along the edge of the hazard as part of the hazard.  It eliminates a lot of the uncertainty as to what to do if the ball goes out of sight toward a hazard margin.  Except in rare cases, it's certain that the ball is either lost in the hazard or it will easily be found and played.  That puts Rule 26 in force and negates any possibility of invoking Rule 27-2.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Yukari

This is one of the most common mistakes that weekend duffers make.  If you are certain that the ball is NOT lost but could be in a hazard, you CAN NOT play a "provisional ball".  It is either in the hazard or it is not.  If you play another shot off the tee, then you are declaring that ball in play and have abandoned the other one, so you hit 3 off the tee--even if you find that the ball is NOT in the hazard after all.

There can be a local rule which would allow a provisional even if the ball is in WH. There is also a example rule available.

Our club has a par five curving along lake side. If your cut is too ambitious or you slice then you end up in WH. The problem is that when water is low, there is about 10 meters (11 yards) of dry land although thick grass. You see your ball landing in this area, but you can not hit a provisional (because of no local rule). But you want to try to find the ball before applying the WH relief rules. This require walking >200 yards along the shore, look for the ball, not find it and then walk back to drop and hit the next one, as the crossing of the WH is normally very close to the tee. Our club should allow hitting provisional in this case.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by luu5

There can be a local rule which would allow a provisional even if the ball is in WH. There is also a example rule available.

Our club has a par five curving along lake side. If your cut is too ambitious or you slice then you end up in WH. The problem is that when water is low, there is about 10 meters (11 yards) of dry land although thick grass. You see your ball landing in this area, but you can not hit a provisional (because of no local rule). But you want to try to find the ball before applying the WH relief rules. This require walking >200 yards along the shore, look for the ball, not find it and then walk back to drop and hit the next one, as the crossing of the WH is normally very close to the tee. Our club should allow hitting provisional in this case.

The downside of that local rule is that you lose the relief options of dropping outside of the hazard.  You either find the ball and play it as it lies, or you continue play with the provisional ball lying 3.  In your case, it would be an appropriate use of the local rule.

My home course has a hole where the local rule is in effect, but it's only used from the back tees.  From the back tees the hazard margin is just 10 feet in front of the tee, but from the middle tees, you don't have to cross the first part of the hazard.  It's just a lateral water hazard along the left side of the fairway.

[Paradox]

i think you guys are just overcomplicating this scenario.

if the golfer is not sure the ball is in the water hazard or findable..he may play the provisional.  If he gets to the ball and does find that its in the hazard, he has already played his stroke and distance and has played his 3rd stroke from the tee.  If he finds that the ball isn't in the hazard then he can play his original ball.  The whole point of the provisional is for situations where you aren't sure where your ball ended up..correct?

The only situation where you would absolutely know you can't hit a provisional is if you can physically see the ball enter the hazard and stay in it

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Paradox

i think you guys are just overcomplicating this scenario.

if the golfer is not sure the ball is in the water hazard or findable..he may play the provisional.  If he gets to the ball and does find that its in the hazard, he has already played his stroke and distance and has played his 3rd stroke from the tee.  If he finds that the ball isn't in the hazard then he can play his original ball.  The whole point of the provisional is for situations where you aren't sure where your ball ended up..correct?

The only situation where you would absolutely know you can't hit a provisional is if you can physically see the ball enter the hazard and stay in it

No this still isn't true.  You may be playing a course where you know that the ball will be playable if it isn't in the hazard.  In such a case there would be no sense and right under the rules to play a provisional ball.  It come down to virtual certainty whether or not the ball is in the hazard, and whether or not there is anyplace outside of the hazard where it might be lost.

[Paradox]

I've played many courses(speaking of water hazards where a ball could be outside a hazard but still not findable due to possible plugging very deep in muddy earth or tall weeded areas that are hard to mow due to the soft ground.

But even if you ARE playing a course where you know the averages..the outcome is the same.  Its stroke and distance either way.  If you see the ball go in the hazard and know its in there..its no different than hitting a provisional if you DON'T know its in the hazard or findable.  You're still hitting 3 off the tee.

I agree that you can't play a "provisional" if you know you're in a water hazard but the outcome is the same.  Stroke and distance.

Provisional play

Original tee shot - 1 stroke

Distance penalty - 1 stroke

Provisional ball - 1 stroke

so you'd be lying 3 and hitting 4 after the tee shot comes to rest.

Hazard play

Original tee shot(water hazard) - 1 stroke

Distance penalty - 1 stroke

New tee shot - 1 stroke

you are lying 3 and hitting 4 after your tee shot comes to rest.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Paradox

i think you guys are just overcomplicating this scenario.

if the golfer is not sure the ball is in the water hazard or findable..he may play the provisional.  If he gets to the ball and does find that its in the hazard, he has already played his stroke and distance and has played his 3rd stroke from the tee.  If he finds that the ball isn't in the hazard then he can play his original ball.  The whole point of the provisional is for situations where you aren't sure where your ball ended up..correct?

The only situation where you would absolutely know you can't hit a provisional is if you can physically see the ball enter the hazard and stay in it

No. He must abandon the provisional and play under any of the options of rule 26. One of which is to go back to the tee under S&D.;

27-2a/2.5

Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 - see Rule 27-2c .

[Paradox]

In a tournament..yes that would be the correct procedure but I guess I'm just thinking more in terms of public course/daily fee play.  You're accomplishing the same thing by going ahead and playing a second ball before you leave the tee box.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Paradox

In a tournament..yes that would be the correct procedure but I guess I'm just thinking more in terms of public course/daily fee play.  You're accomplishing the same thing by going ahead and playing a second ball before you leave the tee box.

Funny, I thought this was a forum about the Rules of Golf.

However, what options would you give the player who finds his ball is in a lwh?

Could he take any of the other wh options playing 3 or must he use his provisional playing 4? What if his ball is playable as it lies?

[Paradox]

Funny, I thought people could have a conversation without getting smart-assed. :)