second ball on tee

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

FYI do you know what the penalty is if you witness a rule violation and knowingly don't call it in a tournament. Hint Rule 1-3

I do not see what this has to do with anything in this thread?

[Snowgolf]

Four putt,

For an "honorable" person you dancing on the line here. First you called my honor into question now your calling me a liar. Easy to be so bold sitting behind a keyboard little different when your face to face with the man. We have a term for people like that where I come from. I suggest you check your honorable self and keep it civil.

I know what I witnessed and I know what I was asked by the officials and I know what the decision was.

He stated as is his right he was hitting another shot. He addressed the ball then the guy pooped off about hitting a provisional. it took the guy out of his shot routine. The claim was made that the advice was unwanted and unsolicited and intefered with his playing of that shot. You don't wait till a guy is at address to ask him if he is playing a provisional. When the guys says "I'm hiting another" thats when you ask.

[Snowgolf]

Simple if you knowingly witness a rule violation and don;t call the player on it or just "let it go' you can be DQ'd.

If your a newbie player and are ignorant of the rule violation and you don't realize its a violation it's one thing. If your a 1st flight player and you watch a noob take a practice swing in a trap and hit sand and don't call him on it you can be DQ'd for waiving the rules.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

Simple if you knowingly witness a rule violation and don;t call the player on it or just "let it go' you can be DQ'd.

But not based on 1-3 which requires agreement, but based on 33-7.

[Rulesman]

Decision 33-7/9 specifically.

[Ignorant]

Snowgolf, you are sooo far in the woods now that you will need a compass to find your way out....

Fourputt, Luu5 and Rulesman are totally right in what they wrote, you are dead wrong.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Decision 33-7/9 specifically.

And even there the reason why a player should be DQ's is not that he just ignores a breach of Rules but wishes the other player to sign an incorrect score card resulting into DQ to him. A mere overlooking another player's breach is not by far automatically a justification for a DQ.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

Four putt,

For an "honorable" person you dancing on the line here. First you called my honor into question now your calling me a liar. Easy to be so bold sitting behind a keyboard little different when your face to face with the man. We have a term for people like that where I come from. I suggest you check your honorable self and keep it civil.

I know what I witnessed and I know what I was asked by the officials and I know what the decision was.

He stated as is his right he was hitting another shot. He addressed the ball then the guy pooped off about hitting a provisional. it took the guy out of his shot routine. The claim was made that the advice was unwanted and unsolicited and intefered with his playing of that shot. You don't wait till a guy is at address to ask him if he is playing a provisional. When the guys says "I'm hiting another" thats when you ask.

That still isn't advice.  Look up the definition.  No matter how you twist it, it's NOT advice.  And I stand by my contention that no rules official I've ever heard of would think twice about that being a penalty.  I've worked with RO's who have worked US Open and US Senior Open and US Womens Open tournaments - none of them would rule that as a breach.  What you describe, as you describe it, is NOT advice, and it's not a rules breach.   I don't know where you are from (since you don't bother to put it in your profile), but if that truly happened as you describe it, your RO's need to get some training.  Even the guys who were on the rules committee in my mens club know Rule 8 and the definition for "advice" better than that.

I agree that when I'm playing in a competition, I'm not going to talk about club selection, or wind, or green firmness, or anything like that before anyone within earshot in my group has hit - not even in a casual, offhand sort of way.  Even a casual comment as in your above quoted decision can be questioned, although if it's truly casual without any intent it still isn't supposed to a breach.  But none of that applies to the scenario you say you witnessed.  All I can think of is that you had  to have missed something in the exchange, because as you describe it, there is no breach of any rule.

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

Simple if you knowingly witness a rule violation and don;t call the player on it or just "let it go' you can be DQ'd.

If your a newbie player and are ignorant of the rule violation and you don't realize its a violation it's one thing. If your a 1st flight player and you watch a noob take a practice swing in a trap and hit sand and don't call him on it you can be DQ'd for waiving the rules.

Only in a stroke play competition.  In a match you can choose to let a breach pass as long as you and your opponent don't make such an agreement between you to waive or ignore a certain rule.  If I'm playing a match and from a considerable distance away, I see my opponent drop improperly from a water hazard, I won't necessarily call him on it if he's not too far astray and isn't gaining anything by it.  I might suggest later, after the match is over that he do some studying, but I'm not going to be a prick about it during the game.  When a player is in a relief without penalty situation I will usually stay on top of it, whether in a match or stroke competition, because surprisingly few players know how to find the nearest point of relief from interference for an obstruction or abnormal ground.

You talk about 1st flight players somehow being more cognizant of the rules.  Playing level seems to have very little to do with the level of rules knowledge.  I'm not taking a guys word for a ruling just because he has a 2 handicap.  That means absolutely nothing.   I've counseled near scratch golfers on very basic procedures too many times to go along with that theory.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

For an "honorable" person you dancing on the line here. First you called my honor into question now your calling me a liar. Easy to be so bold sitting behind a keyboard little different when your face to face with the man. We have a term for people like that where I come from. I suggest you check your honorable self and keep it civil.

I know what I witnessed and I know what I was asked by the officials and I know what the decision was.

He stated as is his right he was hitting another shot. He addressed the ball then the guy pooped off about hitting a provisional. it took the guy out of his shot routine. The claim was made that the advice was unwanted and unsolicited and intefered with his playing of that shot. You don't wait till a guy is at address to ask him if he is playing a provisional. When the guys says "I'm hiting another" thats when you ask.

FWIW, I'm with Fourputt.

People will often ask "is that a provisional?" It goes along with being an honorable guy, because you're potentially saving the guy from stroke and distance if his original ball is found, by forcing him to declare it a provisional if he wants that option. Sometimes players forget.

You can ask as they're putting the tee in the ground. It doesn't interrupt anything.

Asking "is that a provisional?" is in no ways advice and no rules official who knew anything about the game of golf would construe it as such and penalize a player. The Rules are clear - and simple - on this. And I don't care if someone interrupts me while I'm standing there addressing the ball if it's going to save me two strokes. I'll simply re-start my pre-shot routine and hit the ball after answering the question. I'd be thankful to the person who interrupted me.

P.S. Bah, FourPutt posted while I was writing. I agree - you must have missed something, or had an incredibly incompetent RO.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

If they have stated their intent to play another ball and as he is in the process of setting up or addressing the ball and you ask " Is that a provisional" and it causes him to stop or have to begin his set up again you have breached the information rule at that moment since you altered their process of hitting the shot.

Hey Snowgolf,

You mentioned "information rule" .  I assume we're talking about R8 which is the context of this discussion, not R9.  Breaching R8-1 hinges on whether or not the player gave "Advice".

“ Advice ’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke ."

To be a breach of R8-1 you would have to make the argument that asking him if he were playing a provisional caused him to make a conscious decision to change his play, club choice, or method of stroke.  IMO opinion, in this case, "change his play" is not breached if you are just asking him what he is doing. If the player had advised him that he should play a provisional that would be different and a breach.   I could not find a decision that comes close to the example you gave. IMO I think the RO erred in his ruling.

[Snowgolf]

For context here.

What the RO asked me about when we came off was:

Had the guy making the stroke stated what he was going to do? I replied yes he had told the three of us he was hitting another ball from the tee. (that is his right,)

He asked me what was happening when he was asked if that was a provisional? My answer was he was at address in the process of making his stroke.

The guys making the stroke was pretty pissed at the timing of the comment he felt that he had told us what he was doing. That why he took it to the RO he was also a pretty experianced player that knew the procedure for playing a provisional. What was in his head and why not play a provisional I don't know. Nor do I care thats his course managment not mine. Maybe he was pissed because the guy popped off and broke his concentration. The point was he got the RO to see that the advice affected his making of the stroke.

[Nole77]

Ok, so reading through all of this thread...I just had something along these lines happen to me on Sunday.

I teed up my first ball and blocked it right over a small lake.  My playing partner and I didn't see it go into the water nor did we see a splash.  I teed up a second ball and hit a (declared)provisional thinking that if my first had gone into the water I would have seen the splash.

We moved up to the lake and I see my first ball sitting on the embankment on the far side.

It looks like I shouldn't have declared my second tee shot a provisional and should have just continued playing that second ball with a one stroke penalty rather than gouging my first tee shot out of the embankment.

In the case where a hazard wasn't in play, a provisional is there to allow a player the chance to find his first ball and play it, and if not, play the second with a one stroke penalty.  In the case where a hazard is in play, there is no provisional and you hit a second shot with a stroke penalty regardless of whether or not you find the first shot.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

For context here.

What the RO asked me about when we came off was:

Had the guy making the stroke stated what he was going to do? I replied yes he had told the three of us he was hitting another ball from the tee. (that is his right,)

He asked me what was happening when he was asked if that was a provisional? My answer was he was at address in the process of making his stroke.

The guys making the stroke was pretty pissed at the timing of the comment he felt that he had told us what he was doing. That why he took it to the RO he was also a pretty experianced player that knew the procedure for playing a provisional. What was in his head and why not play a provisional I don't know. Nor do I care thats his course managment not mine. Maybe he was pissed because the guy popped off and broke his concentration. The point was he got the RO to see that the advice affected his making of the stroke.

As you explain it, there still was no advice involved.  I can't for the life of me see how any RO could possibly think so.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Nole77

I teed up my first ball and blocked it right over a small lake.  My playing partner and I didn't see it go into the water nor did we see a splash.  I teed up a second ball and hit a (declared)provisional thinking that if my first had gone into the water I would have seen the splash.

We moved up to the lake and I see my first ball sitting on the embankment on the far side.

It looks like I shouldn't have declared my second tee shot a provisional and should have just continued playing that second ball with a one stroke penalty rather than gouging my first tee shot out of the embankment.

You were correct in hitting a provisional as the ball could have been lost outside WH.

When you saw the ball on embankment, your provisional ceased to exist. At that point you could have made a decision to play a new ball from tee, i.e. your third. So no harm done, except walk back to tee.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Snowgolf

The point was he got the RO to see that the advice affected his making of the stroke.

This is what has most of us in disagreement.  From how you explained it, he was never given advice under the definition, he was asked a question.  IMO there is a clear distinction.

Looking back at this thread, it's kind of gotten derailed anyway.

1) A provisional can be played for a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

2) The player must announce his intent to play a provisional before putting the ball into play, otherwise it becomes the ball in play regardless of where the original ball is.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Nole77

In the case where a hazard wasn't in play, a provisional is there to allow a player the chance to find his first ball and play it, and if not, play the second with a one stroke penalty.  In the case where a hazard is in play, there is no provisional and you hit a second shot with a stroke penalty regardless of whether or not you find the first shot.

Hi Nole,

I read the above 3 times and still don't understand what your asking.

1)  You thought your ball might be lost outside of a water hazard, so you declared and played a provisional.  All Good.

2)  You got up to the hazard and found your original ball.  All Good.

3)  Assuming you found your original within 5 minutes, sounds like you saw it right away, the provisional is abandoned.

4)  In that case you continue to play your original.  If it were found in the hazard, you could proceed under anyone of the options under Rule 26.

5)  If you did not find your original within 5 minutes, it is lost and you must continue with your provisional, it becomes the ball in play. Assuming this was your tee shot, you would be laying 3.

6) Because you were not sure if your original ball was in the hazard or not, you must find it within 5 minutes, or, if you don't find it, have some kind of proof that it wound up in the hazard, ( like an eyewitness), otherwise you must treat it as lost.  You can not assume it went in the hazard if you don't have virtual certainty that it's in the hazard.

7) If in the case you described, you did not play a provisional, and could not find your original ball, you would have to go back to the tee under stroke and distance and play your 3rd stroke.

[reedf]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Hi Nole,

I read the above 3 times and still don't understand what your asking.

1)  You thought your ball might be lost outside of a water hazard, so you declared and played a provisional.  All Good.

2)  You got up to the hazard and found your original ball.  All Good.

3)  Assuming you found your original within 5 minutes, sounds like you saw it right away, the provisional is abandoned.

4)  In that case you continue to play your original.  If it were found in the hazard, you could proceed under anyone of the options under Rule 26.

5)  If you did not find your original within 5 minutes, it is lost and you must continue with your provisional, it becomes the ball in play. Assuming this was your tee shot, you would be laying 3.

6) Because you were not sure if your original ball was in the hazard or not, you must find it within 5 minutes, or, if you don't find it, have some kind of proof that it wound up in the hazard, ( like an eyewitness), otherwise you must treat it as lost.  You can not assume it went in the hazard if you don't have virtual certainty that it's in the hazard.

7) If in the case you described, you did not play a provisional, and could not find your original ball, you would have to go back to the tee under stroke and distance and play your 3rd stroke.

In the case mentioned.... it sounds like Nole would have rather played his provisional shot. IMO, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, your ball is not "found" until it has been positively identified as your own. Meaning, check the type of ball and markings. IF you see "a" ball that could possibly be yours but looks like it's in a really bad spot like Nole described, you could take the long scenic way around, maybe stop for a drink or what ever, let your 5 minutes expire at which time your ball has not been identified and must be declared as lost and you can take your provisional. Or is that too much of a stretch? I mean, you DO have the option of not looking for your ball....

[Dormie1360]

It's a stretch.  It's true you don't have to look for it, but anyone else can look for it and if found, you are required to identify it.  Someone can check me on this but, although you always have the option to play stroke and distance under rule 27-1, once you declare a second stroke as a provisional, I don't think you can ignore a ball that (even if you are the only one that sees it), may be the original.

27-2c/2

Ball Believed to Be Original Found; Player Wishes to Ignore It and Continue Play with Provisional Ball

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player plays his tee shot into a heavy thicket. Since his ball may be lost, he hits a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. In the circumstances, it is advantageous to the player not to find his original ball. Accordingly, the player does not search for the original ball and walks directly toward his provisional ball. While the player is on his way to his provisional ball, a ball believed to be his original is found. The player is advised that his original ball may have been found. May the player ignore this ball and continue play with the provisional ball?

A. No. The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player's original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule). The provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule 27-2c . See also Decision 27-2b/1 .

27/13

Refusal to Identify Ball

Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?

A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball.

If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee (Rule 34-3 ). In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7 .