Do I cock or hinge my right wrist on pitches?

[Goat Green]

The reason I ask is, in Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible, he talks about the importance of cocking the right wrist (for a right-hander) as opposed to hinging it.

But then there is Phil Mickleson's "Hinge and Hold," which seems to say the complete opposite.

Then, I have also noticed that some people use the words "hinging" and "cocking" interchangeably, even though they mean two very different things. So I am confused. I felt like I was starting to get a pretty good feel, using the hinge and hold. But with the cocking of the right wrist instead of hinging it, all I do is skull it. Which maybe mental on my part... So are these just different methods, or have I misunderstood one of them?

I searched here, and on google of course, but there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Goat Green

The reason I ask is, in Dave Pelz's Short Game Bible, he talks about the importance of cocking the right wrist (for a right-hander) as opposed to hinging it.

But then there is Phil Mickleson's "Hinge and Hold," which seems to say the complete opposite.

Then, I have also noticed that some people use the words "hinging" and "cocking" interchangeably, even though they mean two very different things. So I am confused. I felt like I was starting to get a pretty good feel, using the hinge and hold. But with the cocking of the right wrist instead of hinging it, all I do is skull it. Which maybe mental on my part... So are these just different methods, or have I misunderstood one of them?

http://www.hermanwilliamsgolf.com/golf-backswing-lesson-flat-wrist-top/

This guy goes into it in some detail.  Cocking is a type of hinging.  Called a radial hinge.  Seems a hinge is a broader term which cocking falls under.

[Goat Green]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

http://www.hermanwilliamsgolf.com/golf-backswing-lesson-flat-wrist-top/

This guy goes into it in some detail.  Cocking is a type of hinging.  Called a radial hinge.  Seems a hinge is a broader term which cocking falls under.

Now I am really confused. I thought I read that:

If you put your right hand out in front of you, thumb pointed to the sky, and move your wrist left to right, that is hinging. But if you move your wrist up, then that is cocking the wrist.

I was having fairly good results pitching, by hinging my right wrist per the above definition. Then I read Pelz's Short Game Bible, and he was very clear, with pictures even, that the right wrist needs to be cocked (up) not hinged(left-right).

But as far as I can tell, Phil's Hinge and Hold for a righty, has him hinging the right wrist to the right on the backswing and holding it.

So are these just two different methods, or am I misunderstanding one or both of them?

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Goat Green

Now I am really confused. I thought I read that:

If you put your right hand out in front of you, thumb pointed to the sky, and move your wrist left to right, that is hinging. But if you move your wrist up, then that is cocking the wrist.

I was having fairly good results pitching, by hinging my right wrist per the above definition. Then I read Pelz's Short Game Bible, and he was very clear, with pictures even, that the right wrist needs to be cocked (up) not hinged(left-right).

But as far as I can tell, Phil's Hinge and Hold for a righty, has him hinging the right wrist to the right on the backswing and holding it.

So are these just two different methods, or am I misunderstanding one or both of them?

There are many different methods.  Find which one best works for you.  A pitch requires that you set your wrists in some fashion.  I wouldn't get overly wrapped up in the little details.  I'm not a huge Pelz guy.  I prefer to keep things simple and view a pitch as a smaller version of the swing with certain compensations made at setup.  If you strike the ball with proper dynamics you should be fine.

[Goat Green]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

There are many different methods.  Find which one best works for you.  A pitch requires that you set your wrists in some fashion.  I wouldn't get overly wrapped up in the little details.  I'm not a huge Pelz guy.  I prefer to keep things simple and view a pitch as a smaller version of the swing with certain compensations made at setup.  If you strike the ball with proper dynamics you should be fine.

Seems to me that the putt, pitch, and regular swing, are dramatically different swings.

I was just curious if anyone had any success pitching with their right wrist cocked up, as Pelz descibes, as opposed to hinged right. Because when I cock the wrist up, it has been nothing but skulls and fat hits, but when I hinge my right wrist I seem to get much better results.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Goat Green

Seems to me that the putt, pitch, and regular swing, are dramatically different swings.

I was just curious if anyone had any success pitching with their right wrist cocked up, as Pelz descibes, as opposed to hinged right. Because when I cock the wrist up, it has been nothing but skulls and fat hits, but when I hinge my right wrist I seem to get much better results.

Putting and chipping are different, but I don't think a pitch is dramatically different than a full swing, at least as far as the basic mechanics go.  Are you talking about flop shots or pitch shots in general?

[Goat Green]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

Putting and chipping are different, but I don't think a pitch is dramatically different than a full swing, at least as far as the basic mechanics go.  Are you talking about flop shots or pitch shots in general?

Pitch shots in general. The reason I think it is a different shot, is because of the right wrist hold through the shot, and the upper body rotation without help from the lower body.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Goat Green

Pitch shots in general. The reason I think it is a different shot, is because of the right wrist hold through the shot, and the upper body rotation without help from the lower body.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-01/tiger-pitch

[inthecup]

I guess you have to define what a pitch is to you.

To me a pitch is around the green, not a partial wedge.  I like to keep as little parts moving as possible.  I control trajectory with club choice and position of the ball in my stance.  My feet are open to the target and it is a large muscle body rotation that controls distance.  I don't use a wrist hinge to limit the moving parts and limit the potential error (think Stricker).  Get past 20 yards and it becomes more of a full swing dynamic using club, limited backswing, choke up to control distance and trajectory.  There is a wrist hinge as I get further and the swing becomes a partial swing.

An error is to try and get the ball in the air with your wrists.  Trust the loft and make solid contact and it will get plenty high.

[Goat Green]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2011-01/tiger-pitch

Interesting... especially the video. Tiger's method really is a mini version of the full swing. And a stark contrast to Pelz's and Mickleson's method.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Goat Green

Interesting... especially the video. Tiger's method really is a mini version of the full swing. And a stark contrast to Pelz's and Mickleson's method.

Different strokes for different folk...literally.  Find what works right for you.  I'm not a huge fan of Pelz and his methodologies.

[GaijinGolfer]

By definition, wrist cock is what makes a pitch, a pitch.  The difference from pitching to chipping, other than ball position is that with a pitch you cock your wrists and with a chip you dont.

[inthecup]

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

By definition, wrist cock is what makes a pitch, a pitch.  The difference from pitching to chipping, other than ball position is that with a pitch you cock your wrists and with a chip you dont.

A chip to me is a low running shot, played off the front foot with a forward leaning shaft.  It is a putting type stroke.  At pitch is meant to get the ball in the air.  It is not necessary to use the wrist to get the ball in the air but you can.

I stand corrected my earlier statement was not totally correct.  Looking for an example of a pitch shot I found this Stricker pitch which clearly shows wrist cock but it is not extreme.

There is more then one way to do this.

[rustyredcab]

How can I tell the difference between a chip and a pitch?

Chip: Keep the lead wrist from releasing. Any hinge or cock is kept largely intact throughout swing.

Pitch: Let the club release through impact. My teacher teaches trail arm folds back and lead arm folds through.

I find feeling a very straight lead arm on the way back helps improve my odds of excellent impact on both types of shots.

[Goat Green]

Thank you all for the input, it has been very helpful. I am going to go back to what was working for me, pitch-wise. It was the Pelz reference that was throwing me off. One thing that every method has in common I notice, is keeping the hands "dead" and ahead of the club. If I can do that, and keep my right wrist cock/hinge consistent, then I think I have something positive and repeatable I can practice.

I think.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

Putting and chipping are different, but I don't think a pitch is dramatically different than a full swing, at least as far as the basic mechanics go.  Are you talking about flop shots or pitch shots in general?

I think pitching is quite a bit different than the full swing.

Here's the pitching method I use and teach: http://thesandtrap.com/t/39411/quickie-pitching-video/

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think pitching is quite a bit different than the full swing.

Here's the pitching method I use and teach: http://thesandtrap.com/t/39411/quickie-pitching-video/

I like that.  I'll give a try at the practice range tomorrow.  Thanks for the link.

[boogielicious]

Try it off a firm surface to really see the benefit.  The bounce really help increase the margin of error.