Golf Etiquette! During Match Play? Was I wrong?

[LovinItAll]

Originally Posted by Bullisok

There is nothing like the RUSH from Match Play... People should play  it more and get to understand it ... It's so much better then Stoke play.

I've played many match and medal play events. ' So much better than stroke play ' would be quite an overstatement for me. Also, not sure anything about match play is any ' rushier ' than stringing together birdies in medal play, knocking it to a foot (or in) on a long par 3, etc.

Winning is winning. It's just different.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I've played many match and medal play events. 'So much better than stroke play' would be quite an overstatement for me. Also, not sure anything about match play is any 'rushier' than stringing together birdies in medal play, knocking it to a foot (or in) on a long par 3, etc.

Winning is winning. It's just different.

It is not a one-size fits all world.  It's nice that in golf we have the choice.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I've played many match and medal play events. 'So much better than stroke play' would be quite an overstatement for me. Also, not sure anything about match play is any 'rushier' than stringing together birdies in medal play, knocking it to a foot (or in) on a long par 3, etc.

Winning is winning. It's just different.

For one thing, it's pretty rare for most of us to "string together birdies", so that doesn't even come into my thought process.  If I get 2 birdies mixed in anywhere in one round it's pretty exciting, since I can go for 3 or 4 rounds straight and never see one.  I can't honestly say what my best string ever is for certain, but I can't remember more than 2 in row.  I've had as many as 4 in a single round, but that was only when I was playing out of my head.  My biggest string of consecutive pars was 6, managed several times, and one time in my life I played the first 10 holes with 7 pars and 3 birdies in a random mix.

However, I can win 3 or 4 holes in a row in match play, or win a couple and salvage halves on a couple more during a run, and for me that is every bit as much of a rush - and just the opposite sort of rush when I turn around and give it all back on the next 4 holes.

[LovinItAll]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

For one thing, it's pretty rare for most of us to "string together birdies", so that doesn't even come into my thought process.  If I get 2 birdies mixed in anywhere in one round it's pretty exciting, since I can go for 3 or 4 rounds straight and never see one.  I can't honestly say what my best string ever is for certain, but I can't remember more than 2 in row.  I've had as many as 4 in a single round, but that was only when I was playing out of my head.  My biggest string of consecutive pars was 6, managed several times, and one time in my life I played the first 10 holes with 7 pars and 3 birdies in a random mix.

However, I can win 3 or 4 holes in a row in match play, or win a couple and salvage halves on a couple more during a run, and for me that is every bit as much of a rush - and just the opposite sort of rush when I turn around and give it all back on the next 4 holes.

I get that, and I agree that winning holes in match play is a lot of fun. I'm not in any way discounting match play events.

[Wisguy]

Bullisok, I feel for you.  I'm not good enough to play in tournaments, although maybe some added pressure of match play might make things a bit more interesting for me on a casual round.

I have had issues years ago with cheating in tennis though.  One season I experienced a lot of bad line calls from two players.  With one player we'll call A, I noticed that he always called close shots in his favor and after seeing a bunch of them that were close but clearly in, I said "You know, on close shots, I always give the opponent the benefit of the doubt."  He didn't like that and said "Are you saying that I'm cheating?"  I responded "I'm just saying that on close shots, you always call them in your favor and they can't all be out."  He was a bit miffed, but shortly thereafter, I noticed that sometimes on shots near the line, he would say to me or my partner "nice shot" instead of "Out!"  In one game soon after, I called good one his shots that really wasn't just to make him feel better.  And a funny thing happened over the course of that season and the ones after it, we started enjoying playing together and we became pretty good friends.

With the second player B, who was ultra-competitive and was usually better than me, I started getting a bit tired of his line calls based on his desire to win the point rather than where the ball actually landed.  Once, he called a shot of mine out that was literally in by a full foot in each direction and got very upset when I pointed that fact out and I said that it wasn't even a close call - he yelled at me that the rules allowed him to call in-bounds or out on his side of the net.  I let it go.  A week or two later I was having a season-best game and beating him pretty handily, which bothered him a lot.  I hit a nice lob over his shoulder that surprised him and as soon as he realized he couldn't get to it, he immediately called it out.  The problem was, it was still in the air when he called it out and it bounced probably 15" inside his court.  I told him he couldn't call it out when a) it hadn't even hit the ground yet, and b) when it was in by more than a foot.  He started protesting loudly enough to attract attention from others outside of our court and then I finally had had enough and said,  "I've let your bad line calls go in the past, but this is just *&*ng cheating.  You call a shot out because it lands outside of the court, not because you can't get to it and don't want to lose the point."  His partner  C was a good friend of his and although C admitted he didn't see the ball land, he still aggresssively backed his partner against me, notwithstanding that B didn't deny that he called the shot out before it even landed.  I finished the set but told B afterwards that I refuse to play with cheaters.  I didn't play with him again for the rest of the season and while C tried a few times to stir up some trouble trying to call me a whiner and an ass, but I responded "I play fairly, even if it means I lose a game, and I expect everyone else to do the same."  The next season tempers had run their course, I played with B again, and I discovered that, having been put on the spot in front of quite a few people for cheating, B started playing fairly, not wanting to be accused of cheating again.  After that spat went semi-public, I noticed that line calls got better in our league and I think it made the games more fun and less stressful for everyone.  And while I worried a little that speaking up and standing my ground might turn some people against me (a lot of people have a herd-like mentality that dislikes confrontation and will side against a critic even if the critic is 100% reasonable and 100% right for having spoken up), it didn't and I think it benefitted everyone.  A year later, the only person harboring much of a grudge about the incident was C.

So Bullisok, don't let this slimeball bother you.  You had legitimate issues with his unethical play - it wasn't like you demanded he putt-out 6" tap-ins and then coughed in the middle of his stroke.  If you ever hear him saying anything about you, just say "I play fairly and by the rules, the same way that Bobby Jones and Jack Nicklaus did.  I don't bend rules or engage in gamesmanship.  Does anyone have a problem with that?"  Nobody will.  If you are a fair, honest, and decent person, even if you may not be the most social or popular person there, people will stand up for you for playing the way the game was meant to be played.

[walk18]

This is why I don't play match play. That and the whole conceding putts thing. You're supposed to concede short putts at least early on, but how short? And then if you don't, you're a jerk? I get that there's "gamesmanship" involved... but to me it's all so stupid. Play the hole out, putt it out and add up the score, no hurt feelings, no arguments.

[LovinItAll]

Originally Posted by walk18

This is why I don't play match play. That and the whole conceding putts thing. You're supposed to concede short putts at least early on, but how short? And then if you don't, you're a jerk? I get that there's "gamesmanship" involved... but to me it's all so stupid. Play the hole out, putt it out and add up the score, no hurt feelings, no arguments.

That's strictly a personal thing. I wouldn't think you were a jerk if you made me putt everything out, and I wouldn't think you were a jerk if you gave me the first (3) 24" putts and made me putt the next one after that.

Anyone who wants to play by all the rules should be allowed to do so without hassle. I think the OP's issue with the drop was reasonable cause for concern, and the other guy had the right to make the OP replay the stroke when the OP played out of turn. It does suck when we encounter dickheads on the golf course, but it happens. It shouldn't ruin your pursuit of happiness, you know?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by walk18

This is why I don't play match play. That and the whole conceding putts thing. You're supposed to concede short putts at least early on, but how short? And then if you don't, you're a jerk? I get that there's "gamesmanship" involved... but to me it's all so stupid. Play the hole out, putt it out and add up the score, no hurt feelings, no arguments.

You have a very skewed idea of how a match really works.  First, in 22 years I've never been involved in any sort of gamesmanship during a match.  That's actually rather a rare occurrence unless it's a game among friends who get along with the trash talking thing.  Gamesmanship doesn't work anyway unless you allow it to.  No hurt feelings, no arguments.  You aren't supposed to do anything.  You concede a putt when you want to.  If it's me, I don't care if you never concede a putt -  it's not going to affect my game one iota.

By avoiding match play because of this kind of a misconception just means that you are missing out on an entire facet of the game of golf.  This is how the game began and how it was played throughout most of it's history.  It's a far more strategic game than stroke play, because you are playing the course and your opponent, not just the course.  That creates a whole new set of variables to consider on each shot, and makes for a much more complex and satisfying playing experience.

It's your choice, but you are quite confused about what match play involves.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You have a very skewed idea of how a match really works.  First, in 22 years I've never been involved in any sort of gamesmanship during a match.  That's actually rather a rare occurrence unless it's a game among friends who get along with the trash talking thing.  Gamesmanship doesn't work anyway unless you allow it to.  No hurt feelings, no arguments.  You aren't supposed to do anything.  You concede a putt when you want to.  If it's me, I don't care if you never concede a putt -  it's not going to affect my game one iota.

By avoiding match play because of this kind of a misconception just means that you are missing out on an entire facet of the game of golf.  This is how the game began and how it was played throughout most of it's history.  It's a far more strategic game than stroke play, because you are playing the course and your opponent, not just the course.  That creates a whole new set of variables to consider on each shot, and makes for a much more complex and satisfying playing experience.

It's your choice, but you are quite confused about what match play involves.

I understand your point here with regards to conceding a putt.  But you do realize you kind of contradict yourself by saying that you are playing the course and opponent, right?  I mean, if you don't care... one iota whether I concede a putt or not when you and I are playing matchplay.  Then why care about the course and your opponent?  Just focus on the course - and play your best.

[walk18]

You have a very skewed idea of how a match really works.  First, in 22 years I've never been involved in any sort of gamesmanship during a match.  That's actually rather a rare occurrence unless it's a game among friends who get along with the trash talking thing.  Gamesmanship doesn't work anyway unless you allow it to.  No hurt feelings, no arguments.  You aren't supposed to do anything.  You concede a putt when you want to.  If it's me, I don't care if you never concede a putt -  it's not going to affect my game one iota.  By avoiding match play because of this kind of a misconception just means that you are missing out on an entire facet of the game of golf.  This is how the game began and how it was played throughout most of it's history.  It's a far more strategic game than stroke play, because you are playing the course and your opponent, not just the course.  That creates a whole new set of variables to consider on each shot, and makes for a much more complex and satisfying playing experience.  It's your choice, but you are quite confused about what match play involves.

I'm quite clear about what it involves, and I think your view of it is skewed. I've played it numerous times in the past. It's ALL gamesmanship. My experience has always been that I found it awkward, especially against someone I didn't know. To each their own though.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

That's strictly a personal thing. I wouldn't think you were a jerk if you made me putt everything out, and I wouldn't think you were a jerk if you gave me the first (3) 24" putts and made me putt the next one after that.

Anyone who wants to play by all the rules should be allowed to do so without hassle. I think the OP's issue with the drop was reasonable cause for concern, and the other guy had the right to make the OP replay the stroke when the OP played out of turn. It does suck when we encounter dickheads on the golf course, but it happens. It shouldn't ruin your pursuit of happiness, you know?

Of course you can game it right back when they give you the first 3 24" putts.  You can still putt them even if they were conceded.  So very carefully aim and miss the putts bu 1" to the right or left and then say "Gee, I'm glad you gave me that one."  You can work on your stroke and speed without aiming exactly at the cup and you might get into his head that he had given you a shot you wouldn't have made.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

I understand your point here with regards to conceding a putt.  But you do realize you kind of contradict yourself by saying that you are playing the course and opponent, right?  I mean, if you don't care... one iota whether I concede a putt or not when you and I are playing matchplay.  Then why care about the course and your opponent?  Just focus on the course - and play your best.

Bobby Jones said that he became a good match play player when he stopped focusing on his opponent and started focusing on beating Old Man Par.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

I understand your point here with regards to conceding a putt.  But you do realize you kind of contradict yourself by saying that you are playing the course and opponent, right?  I mean, if you don't care... one iota whether I concede a putt or not when you and I are playing matchplay.  Then why care about the course and your opponent?  Just focus on the course - and play your best.

What I mean by playing your opponent is that you often choose how to play a shot or a hole depending on your opponent's situation.  You aren't always trying to just play the course, the situation in the match can determine your approach.

The 12th hole on my home course is a 440 yard par 4, which plays to bogey for most players just because of the length. Get into a little trouble and it can quickly be a double bogey or worse, so I prefer to play it safe when I have the option.  In consecutive matches I've won that hole with a double bogey and then lost it with a bogey.  In the first match I had a solid lead in the match, so I played a 3W off the tee and my opponent hit driver because he had to take the risk.  He hit into the deep native rough and it was downhill from there, even though I also played pretty loosely.  Once he was in trouble I knew I didn't have to make better than a double to halve the hole with him.  Since I had a good lead in the match, all I needed were halves.

In the next round my opponent and I were all square coming to that hole.  He had the honor and striped his drive down the middle.  I was thus forced to use the driver, but faded my tee shot into the fairway bunker and only hit my 2nd about 100 yards.  He hit his 2nd shot about 3 yards off the green, then got up and down for par and took the lead in the match, a lead he never relinquished.  As we got to the last 3 holes, I was forced to take some chances which I normaly wonldn't do because I needed to win at least one hole, not just halve.  He finally won 2 up.  That is just one example of many times where I played a hole according to how match stands, or how my opponent has played.  It's not straight man to man, but the state of the match or hole has to be factored in if you are going to be a good match player.

Bobby Jones can talk about beating par all he wants, but that isn't a factor for most of us.  I still maintain that match play is situational golf.  Always has been and always will be.

[Bullisok]

Just a follow up to the match play situation... Since then many in my club that heard what happened came up to me and said in one way or another... "Don't worry about him. His reputation proceeds him and yours you. Nice win... Good luck in your next match!"

I did lose my Finale match in the Championship round. It went to the 19th hole. I was down 3 on the front nine climbed back to even... Went back down 3 on the back with 4 to go and tied it on 17. Went into 18 even... Thought I WON he had a 15 left to right pounded it off the back of the cup... Actually out of cup behind hole sat and trickled back in the cup. On the 19th Both a great T shot He had 160 to cup I had 145... He hit a shot just off front of green... I Chunked an 8 iron and landed 15 yards short in the deep rough... My third loped a wedge 13 ft or so... He chipped within 1/2 ft ... I miised the putt... all over but GREAT MATCH!  Just classic and sooooo Much fun...

[zipazoid]

I'm just glad you beat that douchebag.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

I'm just glad you beat that douchebag.

Did you read his post?  He lost, but he had a great time playing the match anyway.  That's what golf should be about.

[Bullisok]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Did you read his post?  He lost, but he had a great time playing the match anyway.  That's what golf should be about.

I think he is talking about the Final match. I Won against the guy I had the issue with.

[Reg5000]

You did nothing wrong.  The fact that he even stated that YOU should of told him what he needed to do in the first place is just stupid.  As a player why would you expect another player to tell you to mark the ball or to tell you where to drop?  Your ok man don't take it serious and as far as mending things with that guy that way it isn't so tense all the time just kind of brush the incident to the side when you are around him.  I wouldn't try to play with him much more either if you can help it.  I know then you couldn't but you know what I mean.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Did you read his post?  He lost, but he had a great time playing the match anyway.  That's what golf should be about.

Did you? He won the match against the douchebag.

I don't know if it's codified, but whenever you're in match play & you want to take a drop, the first thing you do is call your opponent over & tell him what you're doing. Otherwise there's no one to 'protect the field.' You are, essentially 'the field.'

And after the round I would report him for what he did.