Red stakes and provisional drive

[MEfree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

Unless he found the ball, it was still lost. However, the rules are more lenient if you know or are virtually certain that your ball is lost inside a hazard. This is a bit pedantic, but hey, it's the rules forum.

It is a wrong ball. The penalty is disqualification unless he goes back and corrects the error before teeing off on the next hole. If he goes back and corrects it by correctly substituting a ball and dropping in the right place, then it's a two-stroke penalty.

I agree that it is pedantic...do you think they have these type of discussions on football, basketball and baseball forums?

It was my last hole yesterday and I have not played since.  I wasn`t playing in a tournament (but had a points game with 2 friends) and plan to turn in my score for handicap purposes (have the card but have not signed it yet).  What is the correct score?  Do I still have the option of going back to the hole to avoid being "disqualified"?

[MEfree]

Looking at the rules,the use of MAY and MUST seem inconsistent in 27 b & c

b . When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1 ).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds , the provisional ball becomes the ball in play , under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1 ).

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1 ), or is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3 ) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c ), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

c . When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds , the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard , the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1 . In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball , he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Except for the last sentence, the use of MAY seems to imply that I had the option???  If there is no option, it would make more sense to say MUST proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by MEfree

It was my last hole yesterday and I have not played since.  I wasn`t playing in a tournament (but had a points game with 2 friends) and plan to turn in my score for handicap purposes (have the card but have not signed it yet).  What is the correct score?  Do I still have the option of going back to the hole to avoid being "disqualified"?

I now see that I was disqualified as soon as I left the final putting green- does this mean that I just take my max ESC score of 7 for the final hole for handicapping purposes?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

What matters is you discovered the ball was in a hazard within the 5 minute time period for searching for a lost ball, so the ball was not lost.  That means all the provisional and lost ball procedures are out the window - you must play under the hazard rules at that point, which means either taking a drop or going back to replay.

Unless he found the ball, it was still lost. However, the rules are more lenient if you know or are virtually certain that your ball is lost inside a hazard. This is a bit pedantic, but hey, it's the rules forum.

Good point, "lost inside a hazard" is the correct description of this situation.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Looking at the rules,the use of MAY and MUST seem inconsistent in 27 b & c

If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Except for the last sentence, the use of MAY seems to imply that I had the option???  If there is no option, it would make more sense to say MUST proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

Yeah, I agree - the use of the word "may" above is kind of weird - it implies you don't *have* to proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. But as you say, the next sentence removes any doubt.

Originally Posted by MEfree

It was my last hole yesterday and I have not played since.  I wasn`t playing in a tournament (but had a points game with 2 friends) and plan to turn in my score for handicap purposes (have the card but have not signed it yet).  What is the correct score?  Do I still have the option of going back to the hole to avoid being "disqualified"?

...

I now see that I was disqualified as soon as I left the final putting green- does this mean that I just take my max ESC score of 7 for the final hole for handicapping purposes?

There's no concept of DQ if you're not in a tournament. And for handicapping purposes, just use your best judgment to determine what your most likely score would've been if you had played by the rules. That may indeed be a 7, but you shouldn't use a 7 just because it's your ESC.  Seems that it would be somewhere between a 5 (if you had gone back to the tee and parred your second ball), or a 7 (if you had taken the drop and got down in 4 from there.).  Maybe split the difference and call it a 6. In the grand scheme of tracking your handicap, being one stroke off on this hole is not going to affect you very much.

I applaud you wanting to get it right though - I'm like that too.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I agree that it is pedantic...do you think they have these type of discussions on football, basketball and baseball forums?

Probably not, but golf doesn't have referees who are designated to make the calls, so probably a greater fraction of golfers have actually read the rule book as compared to players or fans of other sports.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Except for the last sentence, the use of MAY seems to imply that I had the option???  If there is no option, it would make more sense to say MUST proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

It is a bit odd, I can't say I completely understand the distinction. I suppose you still have the option, if you haven't found the ball and your five minute search has not elapsed, of continuing your search. In that sense, you have the choice to keep searching, find it, and play it as it lies without invoking the cited rules.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

There's no concept of DQ if you're not in a tournament. And for handicapping purposes, just use your best judgment to determine what your most likely score would've been if you had played by the rules. That may indeed be a 7, but you shouldn't use a 7 just because it's your ESC.  Seems that it would be somewhere between a 5 (if you had gone back to the tee and parred your second ball), or a 7 (if you had taken the drop and got down in 4 from there.).  Maybe split the difference and call it a 6. In the grand scheme of tracking your handicap, being one stroke off on this hole is not going to affect you very much.

This is correct, to my understanding of the handicapping rules. You have played part of a hole other than by the rules of golf, so I think you're supposed to estimate, from the point at which you "abandoned" the rules, your most likely score.

For handicap purposes, I would just turn in the score you made, assuming you included the stroke-and-distance penalty for your provisional ball. Since going back to the tee and replaying your shot is one of your options from a water hazard, the only problem is that you played it as a provisional. That's against the rules, but only in a rather technical sense. You then played out the hole from that point, and I am of the opinion that the score you actually recorded, even if invalid on a technicality, is about as good a method of "estimating" your likely score as any.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by zeg

For handicap purposes, I would just turn in the score you made, assuming you included the stroke-and-distance penalty for your provisional ball. Since going back to the tee and replaying your shot is one of your options from a water hazard, the only problem is that you played it as a provisional. That's against the rules, but only in a rather technical sense. You then played out the hole from that point, and I am of the opinion that the score you actually recorded, even if invalid on a technicality, is about as good a method of "estimating" your likely score as any.

I understand what you are saying, but disagree.

The reason I played my provisional instead of taking a drop was because my provisional was 20 feet from the hole while I would have had to drop in a gravely area with only patches of grass and then try to pitch on the green that also had a hazard on the other side of it.  I figured I had a putt at 4 with 5 a very good possibility while taking the drop would have brought 6 or more into play.  I also didn`t like the fact that I would probably damage my club if the dropped ball ended up on the gravel, which seemed likely.  Going back to the tee also seemed worse (and slower with a group behind us) than playing the provisional as I had hit a good shot to get to 20 feet on the provisional while a re-tee might end up like my first one in the hazard to the right or could have ended up in the bunker or hazard to the left.  I think I would have averaged at least 5.5 going either route.

Both of the above assume that I actually played by the rules, which you guys are saying that I didn`t.  Assuming that the ball I never found was not "lost" then I think I am subject to the wrong ball penalty which starts at 2 strokes and escalates to a DQ in stroke play.  I didn`t mention this before, but we were playing 9s which is a 3 person match play type game.

Assuming you are playing match play and lose the hole on a rules violation, how do you score it for handicap purposes?  Estimating seems hard to do when I only hit 1 legitimate shot (which at the very minimum subjected me to a stroke penalty).  This is the type of hole where 1 good swing results in a likely par, while a couple of mediocre to bad swings can lead to a triple or more.

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Assuming you are playing match play and lose the hole on a rules violation, how do you score it for handicap purposes?

Exactly the way we are advising you to do it. Estimate.

Quote:

Estimating seems hard to do when I only hit 1 legitimate shot (which at the very minimum subjected me to a stroke penalty).  This is the type of hole where 1 good swing results in a likely par, while a couple of mediocre to bad swings can lead to a triple or more.

Sounds like just about every hole I have ever played.

For handicapping purposes, you are allowed to estimate even with NO legitimate shots. I.e., if you play at least 13 holes you can take net par (par + whatever your handicap is on the hole) for every hole you did not play of the 18. (And if you play at least 6 you can estimate the remaining 3 for a 9 hole score.)

[zeg]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Both of the above assume that I actually played by the rules, which you guys are saying that I didn`t.  Assuming that the ball I never found was not "lost" then I think I am subject to the wrong ball penalty which starts at 2 strokes and escalates to a DQ in stroke play.  I didn`t mention this before, but we were playing 9s which is a 3 person match play type game.

If you're playing a format that's not recognized by the rules, you probably didn't play any holes under the RoG. This might not be the case if the format "fits on top" of the normal rules, but if it leads you to play the game differently than you would under either stroke play or match play, it's not really the same game. I'm not sure how the handicapping rules handle this; it's possible they're lenient on the point, but you should look through the manual on the USGA website.

Ignoring that, as we've said, if you finished a hole other than strictly by the rules, you make an honest estimate of your most likely score. This is not terribly well defined, but really, I don't think it's worth stressing over as long as you have a reasonable explanation for how you arrived at the number. From your last post, I take it you got a 5 on the hole as you initially scored it, and you say your real "most likely" score would be something like 5.5. You can't record a half-stroke, so just call it a 5. Sure, you might have made a 6 or worse from a bad lie, but I'd be very cautious about overestimating the number of strokes. Once in a while we take three chips to get 30 yards from a crappy lie, but even as a high-handicapper that was rare enough for it to be a serious consideration when estimating a "most likely" score. You might well have gotten a decent lie, put it near the green, chipped on, and one-putted. We're quibbling about probably 1 stroke out of a whole round, which will be averaged 10 other scores if it happens to be one of your best scores.

Anyway, my argument for using the actual score as the estimate presupposes you played those strokes with typical performance. If you truly hit a phenomenal hero shot that you won't replicate in the next dozen rounds, then go ahead and add a stroke. Likewise, if you shanked three strokes, I'd choose a different method of estimating. The point is simply to be honest when you estimate what you really would have scored. In most cases, a score you actually recorded using an approximation to the rules will be pretty close to the "most likely" score. (Which, incidentally, there is no way to know with any certainty.)

Wow... that's a lot of words...

[edit]

I got curious and looked in the handicap manual, and some of my statements above are incorrect. The rules about estimating the most likely score is to be used when you pick up in the middle of a hole.

What we're talking about here is playing other than by the "principle of the Rules of Golf." Your match play format probably complies with the principles, unless it's really screwy, so I wouldn't worry about that.

It's a little unclear whether you should treat the hole as "not played under the rules of golf" or as "started but not finished." I was inclined to argue for the former---in which case you just take par+strokes---but one of their examples is picking up in stroke play. That's not so different from here. I'm uncertain, but I'm now inclined to go with my original feeling: since you started with the intention of playing by the rules, treat it like you picked up at the point when you deviated from the rules.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by zeg

...

Wow... that's a lot of words...

Well said though.

Originally Posted by zeg

It's a little unclear whether you should treat the hole as "not played under the rules of golf" or as "started but not finished." I was inclined to argue for the former---in which case you just take par+strokes---but one of their examples is picking up in stroke play. That's not so different from here. I'm uncertain, but I'm now inclined to go with my original feeling: since you started with the intention of playing by the rules, treat it like you picked up at the point when you deviated from the rules.

Agreed. That's been my reasoning in my responses - that up until MEfree played the wrong ball, he was playing under the rules of golf. When he started playing the wrong ball, and since he did not correct that error, it was for all intents as if he had picked up and left the hole unfinished.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I recall Brant Snedeker not looking for a ball and going straight to his provisional during the Open, but he was not in a hazard.

That's the difference. If you're in a hazard, there is no option to hit, nor subsequently play, a provisional. And of course, hazard or not, if anyone found his first ball and pointed it out to him within 5 minutes, he'd be forced to play it.

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a , 27-1 or 28a ; or

Surely, if he has hit a second ball from where he hit the first and not declared it a provisional, its in play and if someone finds the first it makes no difference.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I recall Brant Snedeker not looking for a ball and going straight to his provisional during the Open, but he was not in a hazard.

That's the difference. If you're in a hazard, there is no option to hit, nor subsequently play, a provisional. And of course, hazard or not, if anyone found his first ball and pointed it out to him within 5 minutes, he'd be forced to play it.

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

Surely, if he has hit a second ball from where he hit the first and not declared it a provisional, its in play and if someone finds the first it makes no difference.

Correct. But in both Snedeker's case and MEfree's case, the ball *was* declared a provisional.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Correct. But in both Snedeker's case and MEfree's case, the ball *was* declared a provisional.

Yes. The difference is that, even without finding the ball, MEfree was virtually certain it was in the hazard. If there'd been even a small area of OB in the vicinity, he would know have that virtual certainty, and could properly play the provisional by not making any effort to find the original ball.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Correct. But in both Snedeker's case and MEfree's case, the ball *was* declared a provisional.

Yes. The difference is that, even without finding the ball, MEfree was virtually certain it was in the hazard. If there'd been even a small area of OB in the vicinity, he would know not have that virtual certainty, and could properly play the provisional by not making any effort to find the original ball.

Just checking - that's what you meant, right?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Looking at the rules,the use of MAY and MUST seem inconsistent in 27 b & c

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and theprovisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, theprovisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), or is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Except for the last sentence, the use of MAY seems to imply that I had the option???  If there is no option, it would make more sense to say MUST proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

The reason for the use of "may" in this case is because if the ball is found in the water hazard, the player also has the option of proceeding under 26-2 and playing the ball as it lies if such is possible.  The rule is quite defiinte that the provisional ball must be abandoned, but the player may still have more than one option for proceeding.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Just checking - that's what you meant, right?

Yes, thank you for catching that.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Looking at the rules,the use of MAY and MUST seem inconsistent in 27 b & c

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and theprovisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, theprovisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), or is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Except for the last sentence, the use of MAY seems to imply that I had the option???  If there is no option, it would make more sense to say MUST proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

The word "may" is appropriate there, IMO,  because you are not required to take relief under 27-1.  You have the option to play the ball as it lies in the hazard.  Now granted, in most cases that is impracticable and you have no real alternative to taking relief.  But it is not mandatory.  And the final sentence just makes clear that continuing to play the provisional is NOT an option.  Your only options are to play it as it lies in the hazard or you MAY take relief under 27-1.

Oops, just saw that Fourputt already made this point.  Sorry for the redundancy.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The reason for the use of "may" in this case is because if the ball is found in the water hazard, the player also has the option of proceeding under 26-2 and playing the ball as it lies if such is possible.  The rule is quite defiinte that the provisional ball must be abandoned, but the player may still have more than one option for proceeding.

That makes sense...you have better reading/interpretation skills than I do.

So today, I had a similar but different wrong ball situation that requires no estimating as I played out the hole with the correct ball (after making one stroke on an abandoned ball).  The question I posted here http://thesandtrap.com/t/61669/handicap-scoring-for-loss-of-hole-penalty-in-match-play#post_762180 is whether handicap scoring is done using the stroke play rules (when there is a loss of hole penalty) or whether you post your score according the the applicable rules (match play in this situation) and ignore any loss of hole penalties.  If you do the later, it seems like two equal golfers could have different handicaps if one always plays match play and the other always plays stroke play.

[gblackwell]

Jumping in an old one, but I'm new here and I just can't resist. Plus, I think a lot of people mix these two things up.

As far as what score should have been recorded for handicap purposes, I think a couple of you are confusing not finishing a hole and not playing a hole under the rules of golf or skipping it entirely. In my view, the OP finished the hole, but did not play under the rules of golf, and should therefore record par plus the strokes he was entitle to based on his course handicap for handicap purposes. See Rule 4-2, below. he would not have the option of estimating his most likely score. This is the same rule if you do not play a hole at all, but played enough holes to record your score.

The procedure is different holes which you start, but do not finish. I interpret this is as "picking up" on that hole. In that case, you record your most likely score, not to exceed you ESC. See Handicap Rule 4-1, also below.

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score . The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3 .

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies ), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole.