Oosthuizen loses drive left into the "water"?????

[onesome]

Under "local rules" at my home course players are allowed to drop at point of entry with a one stroke penalty if the ball gets lost in them. This is of course to speed the pace of play and I thought maybe this may become something the USGA may want to change in the rules regarding "native/grass areas".

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesome

So native grasses are only recomended to courses to be declared lateral hazards,my course declares these grasses under local rules to be treated as lateral however our weekly mens club round doesn't and we get hit with stroke and distance. I wonder if the USGA will take a firmer stance on native grasses being considered lateral hazards.

Fourputt's comment only applies to native grasses / woods that are adjacent to and can reasonably be treated as part of a water hazard. There has to be water inside the hazard, you can't just declare a dry native area to be a lateral hazard.

Thank you Zeg.  That is exactly what I was referring to.

Originally Posted by onesome

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

Fourputt's comment only applies to native grasses / woods that are adjacent to and can reasonably be treated as part of a water hazard. There has to be water inside the hazard, you can't just declare a dry native area to be a lateral hazard.

Under "local rules" at my home course players are allowed to drop at point of entry with a one stroke penalty if the ball gets lost in them. This is of course to speed the pace of play and I thought maybe this may become something the USGA may want to change in the rules regarding "native/grass areas".

That's what a provisional ball is for.  My home course in Colorado has native rough that can grow 4 feet tall  after a wet spring.  We know that when the ball heads that direction, you play a provisional ball.  We don't just bypass the rules.  By the way, that so-called "local rule" would never be officially approved because it improperly modifies a rule.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by onesome

Under "local rules" at my home course players are allowed to drop at point of entry with a one stroke penalty if the ball gets lost in them. This is of course to speed the pace of play and I thought maybe this may become something the USGA may want to change in the rules regarding "native/grass areas".

I've seen this at a few places too. As I've argued too much elsewhere, I'm sympathetic to the "illegal" local rule, but I think following the rules is more important. Unless the rule is changed, I think it would be better for the courses not to create situations like yours where real competitions have to ignore the local rule.

Someone should go bury a kiddie pool in the center of each native area. Poof. It's a hazard. Problem solved!

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by zeg

I've seen this at a few places too. As I've argued too much elsewhere, I'm sympathetic to the "illegal" local rule, but I think following the rules is more important. Unless the rule is changed, I think it would be better for the courses not to create situations like yours where real competitions have to ignore the local rule.

Someone should go bury a kiddie pool in the center of each native area. Poof. It's a hazard. Problem solved!

I prefer the idea of changing the rule to allow non-water hazards as opposed to the kiddie pool work-around.

As far as not having a reasonable place to drop goes with stroke and distance, one thing you have to remember is that a ball can roll after it is dropped, so there is no guarantee you will get exactly the same shot as you had before.  While trying to hit a hero shot from the woods may or may not be a good idea, a foot to the left or right can make a huge difference at times on the playability of the shot.  I have had chip out situations from the woods where I thought I could get through 90% of the time and played the shot, but if I was a foot left or right (i.e. after a drop after a portion of 10% of the time I didn`t make it and the ball ended up in an impossible situation), then the odds could be only 10% or less.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I prefer the idea of changing the rule to allow non-water hazards as opposed to the kiddie pool work-around.

As far as not having a reasonable place to drop goes with stroke and distance, one thing you have to remember is that a ball can roll after it is dropped, so there is no guarantee you will get exactly the same shot as you had before.  While trying to hit a hero shot from the woods may or may not be a good idea, a foot to the left or right can make a huge difference at times on the playability of the shot.  I have had chip out situations from the woods where I thought I could get through 90% of the time and played the shot, but if I was a foot left or right (i.e. after a drop after a portion of 10% of the time I didn`t make it and the ball ended up in an impossible situation), then the odds could be only 10% or less.

Then you either take your unplayable one shot earlier (before the shot you thought you could pull off but obviously didn't since you're taking stroke and distance again) or you putt the ball a foot to the side so you have a shot again.

Besides the fact that I literally cannot conceive of a shot where you would have NO options at all under the rules and NO ability at all to move the ball from the lie in which it's dropped/hit/located/etc.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by iacas

Besides the fact that I literally cannot conceive of a shot where you would have NO options at all under the rules and NO ability at all to move the ball from the lie in which it's dropped/hit/located/etc.

Kevin Na when he ran up the 14(?) last year - classic example of should've taken an unplayable earlier and then was left with no shot.

I thought the USGA had non-wet hazards at Pebble - Dustin's ball that they couldn't find in the trees was thought to be in a hazard, they then found it outside the hazard after 5 min 10 secs or so.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by iacas

Then you either take your unplayable one shot earlier (before the shot you thought you could pull off but obviously didn't since you're taking stroke and distance again) or you putt the ball a foot to the side so you have a shot again.

Besides the fact that I literally cannot conceive of a shot where you would have NO options at all under the rules and NO ability at all to move the ball from the lie in which it's dropped/hit/located/etc.

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Kevin Na when he ran up the 14(?) last year - classic example of should've taken an unplayable earlier and then was left with no shot.

I thought the USGA had non-wet hazards at Pebble - Dustin's ball that they couldn't find in the trees was thought to be in a hazard, they then found it outside the hazard after 5 min 10 secs or so.

One thing to remember about the unplayable, as with Kevin Na's case, if you don't take option 28a, which is to take a stroke and distance penalty and play the shot over, you can wind up dropping a ball under 28b or 28c and be as just as unplayable as you were before you took the drop.  Plus, if you take a swipe at it first, before you deem it unplayable, you've eliminated your option of replaying the stroke from outside the junk and will have to drop under options 28c or b.  (two club lenghts or keep the point of the drop on a line from the ball and the pin.)

Depending on how deep you are in the junk, if you take a chance with a drop and still cant' hit it, you may have to invoke another unplayable and again decide on which option to play under Rule 28..... replay the shot, two club lengths, or keep the point between the ball and the pin and drop on that line.  If you make a stroke at the ball while in the junk, and the resulting stroke still leaves you in an unplayable position, you are left with taking another drop 2 club lengths, or keeping the line between the ball and the pin.  Because you took a swipe at it in the junk, option 28a replaying the stroke really doesn't help you, because under option "a" you would now have to play the stroke from the lousy lie you just tried to hit it from.

The point to all this is unless you are positive you can advance the ball to some place where you can hit it again, deem the ball unplayable.  Once you deem the ball unplayable, make sure you have a place to drop it or take your medicine and replay the stroke.

28/5

Regression Under Unplayable Ball Rule

Q. A player plays a stroke from Point A to Point B. Point B is in an area from which it is very difficult to extricate the ball. The player considers deeming the ball unplayable but this would result in a stroke-and-distance penalty (Rule 28a ). Dropping behind under Rule 28b is impossible due to a boundary fence and dropping within two club-lengths under Rule 28c is not feasible because it would require a considerable number of such drops to escape the area. The player plays from Point B and moves the ball a few feet to Point C, where the ball is clearly unplayable. Under Rule 28a , may the player:

(a) deem the ball unplayable at Point C and drop a ball under penalty of one stroke at Point B, and then

(b) deem the ball unplayable at Point B and drop a ball, under an additional penalty of one stroke, at Point A?

A. No. Under Rule 28a , the player would be entitled to drop a ball only at the place from which he played his last stroke (Point B).

In the circumstances, the player's only alternative is to invoke Rule 28c a sufficient number of times (starting at Point C and dropping the ball sideways within two club-lengths each time) to get the ball into a playable position

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

One thing to remember about the unplayable, as with Kevin Na's case, if you don't take option 28a, which is to take a stroke and distance penalty and play the shot over, you can wind up dropping a ball under 28b or 28c and be as just as unplayable as you were before you took the drop.  Plus, if you take a swipe at it first, before you deem it unplayable, you've eliminated your option of replaying the stroke from outside the junk and will have to drop under options 28c or b.  (two club lenghts or keep the point of the drop on a line from the ball and the pin.)

Depending on how deep you are in the junk, if you take a chance with a drop and still cant' hit it, you may have to invoke another unplayable and again decide on which option to play under Rule 28..... replay the shot, two club lengths, or keep the point between the ball and the pin and drop on that line.  If you make a stroke at the ball while in the junk, and the resulting stroke still leaves you in an unplayable position, you are left with taking another drop 2 club lengths, or keeping the line between the ball and the pin.  Because you took a swipe at it in the junk, option 28a replaying the stroke really doesn't help you, because under option "a" you would now have to play the stroke from the lousy lie you just tried to hit it from.

The point to all this is unless you are positive you can advance the ball to some place where you can hit it again, deem the ball unplayable.  Once you deem the ball unplayable, make sure you have a place to drop it or take your medicine and replay the stroke.

28/5

Regression Under Unplayable Ball Rule

Q.A player plays a stroke from Point A to Point B. Point B is in an area from which it is very difficult to extricate the ball. The player considers deeming the ball unplayable but this would result in a stroke-and-distance penalty (Rule 28a). Dropping behind under Rule 28b is impossible due to a boundary fence and dropping within two club-lengths under Rule 28c is not feasible because it would require a considerable number of such drops to escape the area. The player plays from Point B and moves the ball a few feet to Point C, where the ball is clearly unplayable. Under Rule 28a, may the player:

(a) deem the ball unplayable at Point C and drop a ball under penalty of one stroke at Point B, and then

(b) deem the ball unplayable at Point B and drop a ball, under an additional penalty of one stroke, at Point A?

A.No. Under Rule 28a, the player would be entitled to drop a ball only at the place from which he played his last stroke (Point B).

In the circumstances, the player's only alternative is to invoke Rule 28c a sufficient number of times (starting at Point C and dropping the ball sideways within two club-lengths each time) to get the ball into a playable position

I had one today on 10 at Keystone River that made me think about these ramifications.  I hit my tee ball into the left trees, where you usually, but not always find it.  1st provisional goes into the right trees which is harder to find as you have to sort through a ton of balls from the range.  2nd provisional finds the fairway.  I find the first ball not very deep in, but there is a stick on top of the ball that I can`t risk moving and I have to wedge myself between 2 trees to even be able to make at most a quarter swing at the ball.  So may options are:

1.  Play it as it lies and hope I can actually make contact with the ball and not hit a tree on a chip out.

2.  Go back the tee and hit my 4th tee shot

3.  Take 2 club lengths, but it is uncertain where the drop will roll to and is almost certain to leave me a worse angle on my chip out.

4.  Go straight back deeper into the trees.

I went with option 1 and chipped out onto the fairway only tee see the ball roll back down and to the left off the fairway into another lie which involved a stick that I couldn`t move.  I was able to make a swing at that one and wedged it onto the green and two putted for a bogey.

[reedf]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I had one today on 10 at Keystone River that made me think about these ramifications.  I hit my tee ball into the left trees, where you usually, but not always find it.  1st provisional goes into the right trees which is harder to find as you have to sort through a ton of balls from the range.  2nd provisional finds the fairway.  I find the first ball not very deep in, but there is a stick on top of the ball that I can`t risk moving and I have to wedge myself between 2 trees to even be able to make at most a quarter swing at the ball.  So may options are:

1.  Play it as it lies and hope I can actually make contact with the ball and not hit a tree on a chip out.

2.  Go back the tee and hit my 4th tee shot

3.  Take 2 club lengths, but it is uncertain where the drop will roll to and is almost certain to leave me a worse angle on my chip out.

4.  Go straight back deeper into the trees.

I went with option 1 and chipped out onto the fairway only tee see the ball roll back down and to the left off the fairway into another lie which involved a stick that I couldn`t move.  I was able to make a swing at that one and wedged it onto the green and two putted for a bogey.

Since you found your original ball, obviously your 2 provisionals are negated. Wouldn't option 2 be to re-tee and play your 3rd shot or did I miss something?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by reedf

Since you found your original ball, obviously your 2 provisionals are negated. Wouldn't option 2 be to re-tee and play your 3rd shot or did I miss something?

It'd only be his 3rd stroke on his scorecard, but it'd be the 4th time he physically teed off on the hole. At some point it gets demoralizing to be treating a tee box like the driving range. :-)

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by zeg

It'd only be his 3rd stroke on his scorecard, but it'd be the 4th time he physically teed off on the hole. At some point it gets demoralizing to be treating a tee box like the driving range. :-)

exactly, not to mention how the guys playing with you and behind you might feel about it.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by MEfree

exactly, not to mention how the guys playing with you and behind you might feel about it.

And then you move on, and everybody is fine. These things happen on golf course.