Why are you not playing scratch?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Paradox

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'll try to explain.....

Because most everyone wants to improve, and with coaching, just about everyone can improve relative to their current ability. BUT there is a finite limit to that improvement based on any number of factors including physiology, talent, and athletic ability.

Now do you understand?

It was never a matter of understanding.  The problem here is that I suppose some people look at a scratch golfer and think its an elite level of golf.  I don't.  I don't see anything stopping a relatively healthy person from achieving par golf with proper practice and mechanics.

Now do you understand?

Well, let us know when you get there.

[Zeph]

[LIST] [*] Lack of practice [*] Not practicing the right stuff [*] Can get too analytical [*] Not enough playing time [*] Not enough short game/putting practice [*] Not enough time to ingrain changes [/LIST]

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally Posted by bigwave916

You gotta throw 9 strikes in a row, 8 spare plus another strike. Or a combination of 4 in a row, 8 spare plus 7 in a row.  Anyway you slice it, I'd say that's "pretty flippin good"

yea.....I was on a roll.   I had one 9/ in the middle of the game and all strikes until my 3rd ball in the 10th frame. (9 pins)

[David in FL]

It was never a matter of understanding.  The problem here is that I suppose some people look at a scratch golfer and think its an elite level of golf.  I don't.  I don't see anything stopping a relatively healthy person from achieving par golf with proper practice and mechanics.  Now do you understand?

I guess your specifically asking why coaches even existed confused me. :-\ Count me in that group that considers an honest scratch golfer to be at an elite level in the sport. [quote name="Fourputt" url="/t/63108/why-are-you-not-playing-scratch/144#post_788540"] Well, let us know when you get there. ;-) [/quote] Yep....... Nothin' to it. Couple of lessons and another session or two a month banging balls at the range and he'll be there for sure. ;-)

[NM Golf]

It was never a matter of understanding.  The problem here is that I suppose some people look at a scratch golfer and think its an elite level of golf.  I don't.  I don't see anything stopping a relatively healthy person from achieving par golf with proper practice and mechanics.  Now do you understand?

Considering that such a tiny percentage of the world's many, many, golfers become scratch, I do think it is an elite level of golf. Not only because not everyone has the talent level to do so, but even some that do have the talent don't have the drive and commitment to hone their skills.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeNut

yea.....I was on a roll.   I had one 9/ in the middle of the game and all strikes until my 3rd ball in the 10th frame. (9 pins)

See, I told you guys ... bowling is easy!

(And to "correct" bigwave, any 8/ after the 2nd and before the 11th gets you a 278, as does any 9/ between 2 and 11, with 9 on the last fill, or my personal favorite; an 8-0 in the first frame followed by 11 in a row)

[BuckeyeNut]

I'd like to clear 1 thing up........scratch golfers don't hit most golf shots on the center of the clubface like many seem to think. Playing scratch golf is a game of marginal misses and recovery while avoiding huge disasters(or at least minimizing them).   Hell......I miss 51% GIR.  I'm surely not hitting the ball pure that often!!!  the key is keeping the ball in play and leaving yourself with a chance to save par when you do miss a shot.   It's a game of misses, and what you do with them.   Saving pars is the name of the game....

[Harmonious]

I think Paradox echoes what a lot of medium handicappers think... That with just a little more practice, or the right coach, or whatever, they too could play to scratch.  And in some cases, that may be true. But I would say that in the vast majority of cases, that is not true.  Unless you have a goodly amount of natural-born talent (good hand-eye coordination, good physical dexterity, good mental abilities, for example) you will never get down there.

That's not to say that people wouldn't improve greatly by practicing more, or by taking some good lessons. Sure they would.  But it's not a straight-line progression from 20 handicap to scratch. Everyone reaches the point where their talent and desire and hard work ultimately runs out. For those with less talent, it just runs out sooner.

[x129]

I can tell you this midcapper doesn't think it is a little more practice. With a LOT more practice and I time I like my chances of being in the 0-5 range. But as I said, I will likely never do that much practice as I don't think I would enjoy spending 3+ hours a day on a course for a couple of years. Most of the guys that I know who play right around scratch but that time in as a kid/young adult. Maybe you know someone who got to scratch practicing 3 hours a week and playing a couple of rounds after picking the game up at 25, but those guys are super rare in my experience.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I think Paradox echoes what a lot of medium handicappers think... That with just a little more practice, or the right coach, or whatever, they too could play to scratch.  And in some cases, that may be true. But I would say that in the vast majority of cases, that is not true.  Unless you have a goodly amount of natural-born talent (good hand-eye coordination, good physical dexterity, good mental abilities, for example) you will never get down there.

That's not to say that people wouldn't improve greatly by practicing more, or by taking some good lessons. Sure they would.  But it's not a straight-line progression from 20 handicap to scratch. Everyone reaches the point where their talent and desire and hard work ultimately runs out. For those with less talent, it just runs out sooner.

[David in FL]

I can tell you this midcapper doesn't think it is a little more practice. With a LOT more practice and I time I like my chances of being in the 0-5 range. But as I said, I will likely never do that much practice as I don't think I would enjoy spending 3+ hours a day on a course for a couple of years. Most of the guys that I know who play right around scratch but that time in as a kid/young adult. Maybe you know someone who got to scratch practicing 3 hours a week and playing a couple of rounds after picking the game up at 25, but those guys are super rare in my experience.

My point, that a lot of people who haven't been there can't understand is how far apart a 5 hcp is from scratch. When you say you'd like to get to 0-5 you're not realizing just how hard those individual index points are to shave once you hit 5..... I think it's easier to go from 15 to 5 for most, than to make that final move from 5 to scratch..... ....and again, the limitation isn't just time and effort. Now we're into true talent athleticism. Likely the reason I'm camped out at 5 right now! :-(

[x129]

I don't think many people will disagree with the first. The disagreement is all in the 2nd. My position is that very few people come close to  maxing out your physical limits. Your a 5 but I am guessing you don't spend 30 hours a week practicing, 12 hours playing another 5 in the gym and so on.  Your 5 is a reflection on your talent level AND practice habits. You can't change the first one but you can the second.  However it isn't remotely practical for most people to set up their life so they can max out their golf game.

Quote:

My point, that a lot of people who haven't been there can't understand is how far apart a 5 hcp is from scratch.

When you say you'd like to get to 0-5 you're not realizing just how hard those individual index points are to shave once you hit 5..... I think it's easier to go from 15 to 5 for most, than to make that final move from 5 to scratch.....

....and again, the limitation isn't just time and effort. Now we're into true talent athleticism. Likely the reason I'm camped out at 5 right now!

[David in FL]

I don't think many people will disagree with the first. The disagreement is all in the 2nd. My position is that very few people come close to  maxing out your physical limits. Your a 5 but I am guessing you don't spend 30 hours a week practicing, 12 hours playing another 5 in the gym and so on.  Your 5 is a reflection on your talent level AND practice habits. You can't change the first one but you can the second.  However it isn't remotely practical for most people to set up their life so they can max out their golf game. Quote:

I'd offer that if someone needs 30 hours practicing. 12 hours playing, and 5 hours in the gym to make any incremental improvement, they've hit their personal talent wall......

[Williamevanl]

Originally Posted by x129

I don't think many people will disagree with the first. The disagreement is all in the 2nd. My position is that very few people come close to  maxing out your physical limits. Your a 5 but I am guessing you don't spend 30 hours a week practicing, 12 hours playing another 5 in the gym and so on.  Your 5 is a reflection on your talent level AND practice habits. You can't change the first one but you can the second.  However it isn't remotely practical for most people to set up their life so they can max out their golf game.

Quote:

This guy is doing all those things, >30 hours a week practicing, going to the gym and playing:

What do the no such thing as talent folks think will happen with his handicap over the next several years? I can tell you, It's going to get painful. It's called diminishing returns on practice and it's a killer. At some point all of that practice will only enable him to stay as good as he currently is. That's the wall.

If you don't understand how someone can be a 6.1, then spend the next half a year practicing 6 days a week all day only to be a 6.3 then you don't get it.

[x129]

To be fair you should post the whole handicap history. You know the one where were he got to 10 bounced around between 10 and 12 for 6 months and ton of people posted that he has hit his limit and he would struggle to get into the single digits. Then he dropped to a 6 and now has been stuck there. Improvement isn't a linear process. It goes in starts and stops. Personally I expect him to have another decent jump next year to a 2 or so. I am basing this that he has only hit the long clubs for ~ 1 year (I know a ton of hours) and I think there is certain amount of learning that is measured in total days doing something rather than just time practicing. That being said I have lost a lot of faith in Dan of the past couple months. Not working with a coach much for the last year and becoming a club ho is not what I consider good practice strategies. I have said it a couple times but now is the fun part for Dan. The easy stuff is all done. Can he grind out another 12 strokes to be a PGA pro (I doubt it). Another 6 or so to be scratch seems possible if he can actually last another 3 years.

Originally Posted by Williamevanl

This guy is doing all those things, >30 hours a week practicing, going to the gym and playing:

What do the no such thing as talent folks think will happen with his handicap over the next several years? I can tell you, It's going to get painful. It's called diminishing returns on practice and it's a killer. At some point all of that practice will only enable him to stay as good as he currently is. That's the wall.

If you don't understand how someone can be a 6.1, then spend the next half a year practicing 6 days a week all day only to be a 6.3 then you don't get it.

Maybe but if you can get to scratch with the work, the limit is your desire not physical ability. When you start scaling it back to what most good 30-50 year golfers do (2 rounds a week, 3-4 hours of hitting balls, and 16 oz curls on the couch would be the high end of the guys I know), you can see the room for improvement.

Quote:

I'd offer that if someone needs 30 hours practicing. 12 hours playing, and 5 hours in the gym to make any incremental improvement, they've hit their personal talent wall......

[David in FL]

To be fair you should post the whole handicap history. You know the one where were he got to 10 bounced around between 10 and 12 for 6 months and ton of people posted that he has hit his limit and he would struggle to get into the single digits. Then he dropped to a 6 and now has been stuck there. Improvement isn't a linear process. It goes in starts and stops. Personally I expect him to have another decent jump next year to a 2 or so. I am basing this that he has only hit the long clubs for ~ 1 year (I know a ton of hours) and I think there is certain amount of learning that is measured in total days doing something rather than just time practicing. That being said I have lost a lot of faith in Dan of the past couple months. Not working with a coach much for the last year and becoming a club ho is not what I consider good practice strategies. I have said it a couple times but now is the fun part for Dan. The easy stuff is all done. Can he grind out another 12 strokes to be a PGA pro (I doubt it). Another 6 or so to be scratch seems possible if he can actually last another 3 years. Maybe but if you can get to scratch with the work, the limit is your desire not physical ability. When you start scaling it back to what most good 30-50 year golfers do (2 rounds a week, 3-4 hours of hitting balls, and 16 oz curls on the couch would be the high end of the guys I know), you can see the room for improvement.   Quote:

Ok, let's resume the discussion when you get to 5. Then you'll have at least a little perspective as to what those final 5 strokes mean.

[Williamevanl]

Originally Posted by x129

To be fair you should post the whole handicap history. You know the one where were he got to 10 bounced around between 10 and 12 for 6 months and ton of people posted that he has hit his limit and he would struggle to get into the single digits. Then he dropped to a 6 and now has been stuck there. Improvement isn't a linear process. It goes in starts and stops. Personally I expect him to have another decent jump next year to a 2 or so. I am basing this that he has only hit the long clubs for ~ 1 year (I know a ton of hours) and I think there is certain amount of learning that is measured in total days doing something rather than just time practicing. That being said I have lost a lot of faith in Dan of the past couple months. Not working with a coach much for the last year and becoming a club ho is not what I consider good practice strategies. I have said it a couple times but now is the fun part for Dan. The easy stuff is all done. Can he grind out another 12 strokes to be a PGA pro (I doubt it). Another 6 or so to be scratch seems possible if he can actually last another 3 years.

? Can you find me where this happened? Dan's first handicap was a 12. He was a 11.6 when he first got a full set of clubs. I don't remember anybody saying that was the end of the road. I also don't remember him bouncing around between a 10 and 12 for 6 months either.

And to get back on topic even if we had 1000 Dans with professional coaches they would all bottom out somewhere most would be nowhere near scratch.

This is interesting as there are just various levels of naivety. Non-golfers are like, "oh my god, he was a 12 and now he's a 6 he should be a 0 soon. Mid handicappers think, well if he just keeps practicing he should be scratch before much longer. The 4 handicap that has practiced 10,000 hours easily and recognizes how ridiculously hard it gets as you approach scratch knows he will likely never get there. ..

And then there's your highschool kid that played/practiced for fun for a couple years, is scratch and wonders what all the fuss is about.

[David in FL]

And then there's your highschool kid that played/practiced for fun for a couple years, is scratch and wonders what all the fuss is about.

I HATE that kid! :-)

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by Williamevanl

? Can you find me where this happened? Dan's first handicap was a 12. He was a 11.6 when he first got a full set of clubs. I don't remember anybody saying that was the end of the road. I also don't remember him bouncing around between a 10 and 12 for 6 months either.

And to get back on topic even if we had 1000 Dans with professional coaches they would all bottom out somewhere most would be nowhere near scratch.

This is interesting as there are just various levels of naivety. Non-golfers are like, "oh my god, he was a 12 and now he's a 6 he should be a 0 soon. Mid handicappers think, well if he just keeps practicing he should be scratch before much longer. The 4 handicap that has practiced 10,000 hours easily and recognizes how ridiculously hard it gets as you approach scratch knows he will likely never get there...

And then there's your highschool kid that played/practiced for fun for a couple years, is scratch and wonders what all the fuss is about.

At the risk of sounding conceited, I never worked all that hard to become scratch. I did not pick up a golf club seriously until I was 22 or 23 years old. My first round I ever played was over 100 and I never shot above 100 again. Within a year of playing I was breaking 90, I broke 80 for the first time within 3 years. I have and continue to play quite a bit of golf but I have never been someone to beat balls and practice hour upon end. I became a scratch golfer in my early 30's, the entire time I have been playing I have had a full time job and family so I never had the luxury of spending hours upon hours at the golf course. Also, I have never really had a formal lesson, though I have had people help me from time to time along the way with my swing.

I guess what I am getting at is there are lots of stories way more impressive than mine. Stories of kids winning national competitions within a couple years of picking up the sport. Guys on tour now that were scratch within a couple years of starting. What makes those people so good? Natural ability.  I see it every summer when I teach junior golf lessons. We will get some kids that just grab a club take their stance and they can hit the ball pretty well. Others will attend several weeks of camp and even with us really working with them they never even make contact. Its natural ability, you have it or you don't.