Johnny Miller: Ben Hogan's Real Secret

[onephenom]

LOL. The ball doesn't have a clue what kind of path it has been hit with, whether it be inside-out or outside-in because the ball doesn't know what your stance line is. It reacts based on whether the face is open, square or closed to the path.

You're post doesn't quite make sense... stance line doesn't have anything to do with anything I said. [quote name="iacas" url="/t/64832/johnny-miller-ben-hogans-real-secret#post_809449"] It is true. And given a path of whatever, a face that's "open" to it will produce a cut. It's not a bad article - it's just one I don't think most golfers need (since most golfers hit cuts or slices already). The path only has to be "out to in" relative to the face. Which is the same as saying face open to path. [rule] Again, for a year or so now, we're trying to use words the way they tend to be heard: Relative to target we'll say right or left. Relative to path we'll say open or closed. So to hit a playable draw (for a RHG), there are two ways to say it: 1) The clubface is right of the target, with the path farther to the right. 2) The clubface is right of the target, but closed to the path. Reverse for a playable fade. [/quote] Thanks for clarifying what he meant. That's not how I read it, I thought he was saying open club face is a fade... should have thought about relative to path. Got confused by his meaning.

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by onephenom

You're post doesn't quite make sense... stance line doesn't have anything to do with anything I said.

You said a cut can't be hit with any path.

That implies that the golf ball somehow knows what the path is. The golf ball doesn't know anything about the path.

Two swings:

Stance line 10 degrees open, path 10 degrees inside out, face 2 degrees open to the path.

Stance line 10 degrees closed, path 10 degrees outside in, face 2 degrees open to the path.

Assuming same quality of contact, swing speed, dynamic loft, etc. there is zero difference in these shots from the golf ball's perspective.

I realize you misunderstood what I was talking about. No biggie. I'm just explaining why I mentioned stance.

Originally Posted by onephenom

Thanks for clarifying what he meant. That's not how I read it, I thought he was saying open club face is a fade... should have thought about relative to path.

Got confused by his meaning.

When talking about the ball's flight it only makes sense to talk about the face in relation to the path.

The ball doesn't know anything about your target.

[onephenom]

You said a cut can't be hit with any path. That implies that the golf ball somehow knows what the path is. The golf ball doesn't know anything about the path.  Two swings: Stance line 10 degrees open, path 10 degrees inside out, face 2 degrees open to the path. Stance line 10 degrees closed, path 10 degrees outside in, face 2 degrees open to the path.  Assuming same quality of contact, swing speed, dynamic loft, etc. there is zero difference in these shots from the golf ball's perspective.  I realize you misunderstood what I was talking about. No biggie. I'm just explaining why I mentioned stance. When talking about the ball's flight it only makes sense to talk about the face in relation to the path.  The ball doesn't know anything about your target.

This game would be a lot easier if it did know the target! :)

[Ernest Jones]

This game would be a lot easier if it did know the target! :)

LOL!

[shortstop20]

This game would be a lot easier if it did know the target! :)

Haha....cheers to that!

[Bucki1968]

I think I gotta agree with shortstop on this one. I can close down my stance, have a strong grip and still hit a cut shot whenever I want to. For me personally, I just have to make the practice swings where my hips clear before the club gets square and I can hit a fade. I do the opposite for the draw. I assume that the club path changes therefore I hit the corresponding shot.

[saevel25]

Sure it does, for a driver 15% of the direction of the ball is based on the swing path. There is momentum traveling in the direction of the swing path at impact, this accounts for up to 15% to were the ball will start off, the other 85% is due to clubface angle.

Yes the ball doesn't know what your stance line is, but for players stance line will dictate swing path, so there interrelated for that individual person. But in the realm of teaching the golf swing, its easier to relate by saying, the ball will start out were the clubface points relative to your target line. Because for most people, they relate the ball flight to were they aim.

[Ernest Jones]

Because for most people, they relate the ball flight to were they aim.

Foolishly optimistic :-)

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Sure it does, for a driver 15% of the direction of the ball is based on the swing path. There is momentum traveling in the direction of the swing path at impact, this accounts for up to 15% to were the ball will start off, the other 85% is due to clubface angle.

Yes the ball doesn't know what your stance line is, but for players stance line will dictate swing path, so there interrelated for that individual person. But in the realm of teaching the golf swing, its easier to relate by saying, the ball will start out were the clubface points relative to your target line. Because for most people, they relate the ball flight to were they aim.

My point was that the golf ball has zero clue whether your path is inside out or outside-in. Because of that if the face is open to the path, the ball will cut. If the ball only cut when the path was outside-in, that would imply that the golf ball knows when the path is outside-in. It doesn't.

Inside-out and outside-in are terms created by the golfing community. It's dictated by the stance line. These terms mean nothing to the golf ball. The ball is hit by a face with a path that is either left, inline or right of the face angle.

[saevel25]

Yes, but that is still a swing path. To the ball, the swing path is either to the left, center, or to the right, and that path has a very small partial impact on how the ball reacts.

Inside out, is still as wing path, its a path to the right. Outside in is a swing path to the left (for right handers). It has nothing to do with target line, i don't know why your linking it to target line. Outside to in, just means the club starts outside the balls center line and comes back inside the balls center line. The only time its related to swing path is if you aim perfectly square to the ball. But that is just incidental

[iacas]

Originally Posted by shortstop20

When talking about the ball's flight it only makes sense to talk about the face in relation to the path.

I disagree with that. Again the ball flight still has to go towards a target.

I agree that when you're just talking about "does the ball cut" or "does the ball draw" the target is irrelevant - but golf is a target game, so we again use the words right/left for face relative to target (basically gets you the start line), and then open/closed for face to path (to get the curve).

[logman]

Yeah, all well and good, but Mr Millers point was about the lead hand palm facing the target and that being a "fade move". When I pick up a stick and do it it does seem to open my body to the target and therefore open the face.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by logman

Yeah, all well and good, but Mr Millers point was about the lead hand palm facing the target and that being a "fade move". When I pick up a stick and do it it does seem to open my body to the target and therefore open the face.

The reason the tip may work as I was trying it, is that it promotes the swing path going inside the angle of the face.  This is what I think you are missing here.  Yeah your body opens and thus your swing path will follow with this type of follow through, the face will open relative to your body but is closed(Left) actualy to your target.

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Yes, but that is still a swing path. To the ball, the swing path is either to the left, center, or to the right, and that path has a very small partial impact on how the ball reacts.

Inside out, is still as wing path, its a path to the right. Outside in is a swing path to the left (for right handers). It has nothing to do with target line, i don't know why your linking it to target line. Outside to in, just means the club starts outside the balls center line and comes back inside the balls center line. The only time its related to swing path is if you aim perfectly square to the ball. But that is just incidental

In relation to what?

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree with that. Again the ball flight still has to go towards a target.

I agree that when you're just talking about "does the ball cut" or "does the ball draw" the target is irrelevant - but golf is a target game, so we again use the words right/left for face relative to target (basically gets you the start line), and then open/closed for face to path (to get the curve).

Using different words for them is acceptable I guess.

I just hate all of this talk about hitting a draw with an open face, it just confuses people even more.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by shortstop20

Using different words for them is acceptable I guess.

I just hate all of this talk about hitting a draw with an open face, it just confuses people even more.

That's precisely why I'm trying to get everyone away from that.

Draws are hit with a face closed to the path, and if it's playable, a face pointing right of the target at impact (for a righty).