New School Pitching

[cipher]

[URL]http://www.golf.com/video/new-school-pitching[/URL] What do you guys think?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cipher

http://www.golf.com/video/new-school-pitching

What do you guys think?

I think I've been teaching a method similar to that for years (not to mention a ton of other people - Fred Griffin, Stan Utley, etc.), and calling it "new school" is silly. :)

[cipher]

Yeah I think modern would be a more accurate way to describe it. It does seem very similar to Utley's method. I like it, although I have always been a ball back, stance open chopper myself. Looking at changing to this "new school" style once I can finally start playing.

[iacas]

http://thesandtrap.com/t/39411/quickie-pitching-video

http://thesandtrap.com/t/60526/erik-hitting-a-few-chips-and-pitches/

[cipher]

I have seen the chipping vids, although I need to take a look at those again. Had not seen the pitching video. I am pretty sold on that method. I have always chipped with my 50 and I like the way it rolls out. I am commuted to attempting a more lofted club this year for chipping as well, with this method. The one thing that worries me though is the possible inability to get any roll out. I will have to figure that out. Generally when I hit a shot attempting this method it pretty much bounces and stops.

[Beachcomber]

I'm in the same camp. My go to chip shot is a weight forward, ball back, bump and run with my 54*. I've never really tried anything else unless I had a forced carry, then I'd go to a 58* flop shot. The pitching method that is discussed here in this thread is great if you can practice it, or have really good hand/eye coordination and timing. But for me, I don't get to practice it enough to feel comfortable pulling the shot off with any distance control. That is where it fails for me. I either fly it too far, or not far enough using my 54*. Erik, do you have any tips for controlling your distances with your quickie pitching method? Like for 5/10/15/20/25/30yd pitches?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Erik, do you have any tips for controlling your distances with your quickie pitching method? Like for 5/10/15/20/25/30yd pitches?

No. You just have to learn to do it.

I almost never hit a "chip" shot because I love to use the bounce. It makes distance control easier because slight variances in when and how you hit the ground don't affect carry or spin nearly as much.

I think the method I teach requires less timing and hand-eye coordination. Hell, half the time I'm not even looking at the ground when I hit the ball - I've already started pivoting and am looking out towards the target when I make contact.

I bet that in 20 minutes I could get you pitching the ball so well you'd never want to "chip" like you do now (ball off back foot, etc.) again unless you're a foot off the green and the hole is 15 feet away.

Like the putting stroke I like (but even more so), you use the big muscles (turning the torso) for gross speed adjustments and the wrists, fingers, etc. for fine tuned adjustments to speed. It's like a microscope: a gross focus adjustment and a fine focus adjustment.

And because pitching uses higher speeds you can goof by 5 MPH clubhead speed and still get a good shot while at a 15 MPH chip that you suddenly hit 20 MPH it's off the green.

[cipher]

It seems though that with this more modern method, that unless you have the technique correct you are more likely to blade chips across the green, as you are trying to slide the leading edge under the ball. With the alternative method (ball back etc.) you all but eliminate blading, but you can easily flub it by jamming the blade behind the ball. If you can teach someone how to hit chips using bounce like this in 20 minutes, I might have to come out to Erie for sure. Haha!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cipher

It seems though that with this more modern method, that unless you have the technique correct you are more likely to blade chips across the green, as you are trying to slide the leading edge under the ball. With the alternative method (ball back etc.) you all but eliminate blading, but you can easily flub it by jamming the blade behind the ball. If you can teach someone how to hit chips using bounce like this in 20 minutes, I might have to come out to Erie for sure. Haha!

I think you're far less likely to blade things across the green. And chips are not pitches - let's be clearer on our terminology here. Chips use the leading edge, pitches use the bounce in my book. You can pitch with just about any club, and chip with almost any club. Sliding the club under the ball uses the bounce and provides a huge area where you can hit the ground and still have a great shot.

The alternative method does not eliminate blading the ball. It increases the odds, because it narrows the acceptable window for contact to a very small area - miss a half inch either way and you're chunking or blading it.

[Old1964]

For distance control...what do you think about increasing or decreasing your backswing...kind of like the dial on a clock...8 o'clock is 15 yards, 9 is 20 etc...

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by iacas

No. You just have to learn to do it.

I almost never hit a "chip" shot because I love to use the bounce. It makes distance control easier because slight variances in when and how you hit the ground don't affect carry or spin nearly as much.

I think the method I teach requires less timing and hand-eye coordination. Hell, half the time I'm not even looking at the ground when I hit the ball - I've already started pivoting and am looking out towards the target when I make contact.

I bet that in 20 minutes I could get you pitching the ball so well you'd never want to "chip" like you do now (ball off back foot, etc.) again unless you're a foot off the green and the hole is 15 feet away.

Yeah a lot of room for error when using the bounce.  Requires the least amount of hand/eye coordination.  What I like about this pitching style is that it's relatively easy for any golfer to learn.  Compared to other parts of the game

Can't do this (below) with ball back, leading edge, etc.

Originally Posted by cipher

It seems though that with this more modern method, that unless you have the technique correct you are more likely to blade chips across the green, as you are trying to slide the leading edge under the ball. With the alternative method (ball back etc.) you all but eliminate blading, but you can easily flub it by jamming the blade behind the ball. If you can teach someone how to hit chips using bounce like this in 20 minutes, I might have to come out to Erie for sure. Haha!

Make sure the weight/pressure is a little forward at address and keep the left knee flexed into the followthrough as the torso opens up.  Arms flex and feel "soft".  Kind of the opposite of a full swing.  Watch Kuchar around the greens today.  Watch how much his left arm bends and almost moves around him after impact.

[Mordan]

My feel for hitting this sort of pitch is a wide/low takeaway, I think that helps me come into the ball shallow.

The shot has been working well for me from fairway type lies, or from the rough if it's a nice lie. But what about if there's a tuft of grass behind the ball and you can't come in shallow. Is there a way of coming in steep and still using the bounce, or do you have to play it back in the stance and chop down?

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by cipher

http://www.golf.com/video/new-school-pitching

What do you guys think?

This just shows you how old I am. This guy is saying using the 52 degree is new school? He was using the old school 60 degree method? Back in the day no one used a 60 to chip with and pitching wedges were closer to 50 degrees.  I consider using the 60 for all shots a new school method and using various lofts the old school way (technique aside). Oh, and I'm not that old. Lol.

[Ernest Jones]

I've working on his a lot, dummy proof shots are always welome in my game Unfortunately I can only practice on mats right now but I gather that, due to the fact the leading edge is removed from the equation, the shot should behave more or less the same off of a mat? I have experimented with how much leeway there is in this shot and it seems to be HUGE. I've literally thumped the mat 5" behind the ball and gotten a reasonable result, wondering if the fact that I'm hitting off of a mat is the reason? Hard to believe the shot can be THAT forgiving. I have been practicing this with a 56* with 14* of bounce as well as a 60* with 8* of bounce, seems to work fairly well with an open face as well (again, not sure how much the mat is helping?? ) Looking forward to trying this of off real turf, I'm sure there will be some significant adjustment required. Question, Erik mentioned above that you can pitch this way with pretty much any club but wouldn't anything above a PW lack the necessary bounce to make this method work? Also, judging by Mike's video above, I take it that key#1 is not required LOL.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Mordan

My feel for hitting this sort of pitch is a wide/low takeaway, I think that helps me come into the ball shallow.

The shot has been working well for me from fairway type lies, or from the rough if it's a nice lie. But what about if there's a tuft of grass behind the ball and you can't come in shallow. Is there a way of coming in steep and still using the bounce, or do you have to play it back in the stance and chop down?

I've been approaching it very much like an Utley sand shot. Anyone else feel there is a large similarity there, almost like an intentional flip.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Mordan

My feel for hitting this sort of pitch is a wide/low takeaway, I think that helps me come into the ball shallow.

The shot has been working well for me from fairway type lies, or from the rough if it's a nice lie. But what about if there's a tuft of grass behind the ball and you can't come in shallow. Is there a way of coming in steep and still using the bounce, or do you have to play it back in the stance and chop down?

Same motion, only difference with the set-up is to have the spine neutral or tilted slightly towards the target.  Normally you'd be tilted a little right.  Similar but not as extreme as I'm doing here for the buried bunker shot.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54554/how-to-hit-sand-bunker-shots

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Also, judging by Mike's video above, I take it that key#1 is not required LOL.

Or do you mean Key#3 Flat left wrist?  Yes I can see my head go forward towards the end of the backswing.   Just something I do because I have less 2nd axis tilt on these shots.

[cipher]

Makes sense guys, I think the lesson for a lot of us is there may be many more scenarios in which a pitch shot is better than a chip shot.  We probably are thinking we should play a chip in instances when we should be playing a short pitch.

[Brakkus]

This is interesting as I used the lofted 60 for short pitches and around the greens for run outs using 9 or 8 iron,never seemed to get on with it. I needed something very simple that I could practice with limited time in my own garden. Started using my Gap a Mizuno Mp 52. The 8 degrees of bounce meant I didn't chunk 50% of the shots like with a 60 and for chipping I just use a putting motion by turning the upper body only.

In fact both set-ups are similar to the video for me. There's air time but also a bit of a run out to get me closer to the flag. Chipping especially for me was a revelation using the Gap. Erik mentioned his method of pitching,reminds me of a Mike LaBauve soft pitching vid I saw where you pivot around to the left with your larger core muscles and I have found that you can actually not see contact with the ball as he says.

The only way I screw this up is if my right hand chokes the club at impact I can shank it or blade it. In my set-up I make sure I feel the correct tension in my hands before swinging and maintain that through the swing and that gets a great result most of the time. I also like that the 52 feels very much head light compared to my 60 which feels like an unwieldy axe in my hand when I want feel. Still use the 60 in fluffy lies because you can slide it under the ball and smack the ground and get away with it.