Beginners question - Would a tour driver help control the power slices?

[mailman]

I ask because I can hit my 3 wood and hybride straight as a die with some good distance (250 yards plus on a cold day) but for the life of me cannot control my driver with the same level of "success".

Now...if I can hit the smaller head clubs straight then would the smaller head tour driver also mean it would be easier to hit drives straight?

Ive had a number of lessons to work on my swing and I have made some steps forward but Im still hitting a high percentage of power slices when using the driver.

Im not looking for a miracle (although one wouldnt be turned down)...just for small steps to help out etc.

Anywho, thanks for your help :)

Regards

Mailman

[maradona10]

Hi Mailman.

I am not going to pretend I know the full physics of the golf swing, because I simply dont but I had a power slice with my driver for quite sometime and it was rather frustrating not being able to put myself in a position from the tee.  I am the same as you, 3 wood does not have slices.

I was told once that while at address, pull your left foot back slightly, I reluctantly tried a few times and my drives became straighter and straighter over time.

Dont aline both feet to the left which would encourage a fade/cut, only the left foot.  To prove it worked, I put my feet to normal position once and the slices came back, this was done after months of putting the tip into practice and it worked endlessly.

It is far from orthodox but I can assure you it worked for me.  You will probably get more qualified advice from other members but this is just from one member to another who had the same problems

[MS256]

Originally Posted by mailman

I ask because I can hit my 3 wood and hybride straight as a die with some good distance (250 yards plus on a cold day) but for the life of me cannot control my driver with the same level of "success".

Now...if I can hit the smaller head clubs straight then would the smaller head tour driver also mean it would be easier to hit drives straight?

Ive had a number of lessons to work on my swing and I have made some steps forward but Im still hitting a high percentage of power slices when using the driver.

Im not looking for a miracle (although one wouldnt be turned down)...just for small steps to help out etc.

Anywho, thanks for your help :)

Regards

Mailman

They made club heads bigger and bigger to give people more forgiveness when they missed the sweet spot.

They made driver shafts longer and longer to give people more club head speed.

Unfortunately they didn't tell the average Joe that it takes more energy to square up a bigger head than a smaller head or that most people are going to lose accuracy and have less ability to hit the sweet spot with a longer shaft.

Even the PGA Tour Players are usually playing with a shorter driver shaft than what the stores are selling to Joe because they know they need the control. Then they make sure they have exactly the right shaft flex, torque, kick point, and overall profile for their swing.

While the average Joe is playing a shaft they pulled off of the rack (and have no idea if it has the right characteristics) that's 2 inches longer than a pro can control, and wondering why they can't hit it.

[Fourputt]

Out of curiosity, what loft is your driver now?  If it's a low loft, that can exacerbate an already strong fade (I know from many years of experience).  Part of the reason you hit a 3W better is the loft, not the size of the head.  It also has a shorter shaft, which helps with making more accurate contact.

My driver is 11°, and that helps keep it straighter.  I rarely hit an ugly slice any more, but I have always played a fade.

[mailman]

Maradona,

Ive tried moving my right foot back to create more space and allow my swing to come from the inside and out instead of the other way and this helped. Wouldnt moving the left foot just create a bigger outside in swing? Ill have to give this a go next time Im down the range (later this week) anyways. So thanks for the tip.

MS256,

I had a look at a few new drivers a few months ago and tried the longtom but as you said, the longer shaft made it unplayable.

Fourputt,

The loft is 10.5 on my driver.

In regards to the shaft length, Ill look in to a shorter shaft.

Many thanks for your suggestions guys.

Regards

Mailman

[Archie Bunker]

Several so-called "tour" drivers have open or neutral faces, something that can make things worse for you. Most standard drivers have a slight draw face angle, and there are drivers that are true "draw" face angles. Perhaps you should give one of these a try.

[rehmwa]

moving the foot 'back'

back meaning.....

e.g. - hitting to the north - rightie.

"back" from the ball?  slide (right) foot west

"back" from the target?  slide (right) foot south

(I do a little bit of both actually with my right foot) >> slightly wider stance and a little bit closed - it helps me dial in the fine tuning, but wouldn't have been enough to fix any problem.

My big slice issue was fixed HUGELY by a link to a lesson here provided on another thread in this very website (THANKS guys) - It was due to the fact that the ball is so forward, and I was setting up with the club at the ball (thus my shoulders weren't lined up at setup, they were open already - that came back during my swing.)  So when I drive, I start with ball still forward, but I set up at the center of my stance and focus and swing through that spot - YMMV - it might have nothing to do with your swing.

Lots of different reasons for a driver slice - from foot position to setting up with shoulders not square to swing path to out of plane swings, etc etc etc.........didja post your swing on the member swings forum?

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by Archie Bunker

Several so-called "tour" drivers have open or neutral faces, something that can make things worse for you. Most standard drivers have a slight draw face angle, and there are drivers that are true "draw" face angles. Perhaps you should give one of these a try.

I don't get this at all, nor do I really get the 'adjustable' face angle drivers.

you look down, you see the face, you square the face to what you want.....twisting it around an axis slightly offset from the shaft line with some feature doesn't mean I don't still look down at the club head at address and grip it such to square it up - maybe for someone that just lays the club head flat on the ground I suppose

I'd love to understand how these things are supposed to do anything other than affect how upright or flat the shaft angle at address is vs the toe up/down of the head.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by rehmwa

I don't get this at all, nor do I really get the 'adjustable' face angle drivers.

you look down, you see the face, you square the face to what you want.....twisting it around an axis slightly offset from the shaft line with some feature doesn't mean I don't still look down at the club head at address and grip it such to square it up - maybe for someone that just lays the club head flat on the ground I suppose

I'd love to understand how these things are supposed to do anything other than affect how upright or flat the shaft angle at address is vs the toe up/down of the head.

Take one of your clubs with the shaft at whatever angle you hold it at address. Then without changing the shaft angle roll the shaft in your hands clockwise and counterclockwise opening and closing the club face to the target line.

You will notice that when you close the club face the club will be obviously delofted and when you open the club face it will be obviously more lofted.

With the technology to spin the club on it's axis in the hosel it lets you open or close the face without changing the shaft angle and without changing the loft (very much).

I have no problem with that technology (in fact I have an R9). What I do have a problem with is that there is no way to have the spine or flow in the optimum position if you adjust the club.

(Unless you find the optimum setting, remove the shaft and have it spined, and then never adjust it again).

[TommyBoy]

Originally Posted by maradona10

I was told once that while at address, pull your left foot back slightly, I reluctantly tried a few times and my drives became straighter and straighter over time.

Glad it worked for you sir. However, in most cases, the more left you align yourself, the more severe the slice. This causes the club-face to be even more open to that path of the swing. "If you line up for a slice, you will likely get what you asked for".

My advice is to stick with the 3W off the T until you are able to fix your swing path and get the club-face closed at impact. The Driver has very little loft and if you cannot sq the face at impact, there is not enough backspin imparted on the ball to compensate for the side spin created with the open club-face in relation to the target line....if that make sense.

[rehmwa]

Yeah, the basics of open and closing a nonadjustable club - I wasn't thinking that way but you planted some reality in how I'm approaching it.

I can't really eyeball the club at address to the loft i want.  But, I pretty much square the face.  So, functionally for me, that adjustable shaft doesn't really adjust face angle for me, it just adjusts the loft vs a square face.

I have to think about it a bit more.  (on my club, if I were to CLAMP the head of the club immobile and then rotate through that adjustment , the shaft would carve a cone in the air - so that confirms the info you note).  Nike VR Pro STR8 Fit.

I think it makes sense - currently, I have it adjusted to what they say is "closed" on a club with a labeled lower loft, but since I hold the face square (not allowing the closed setting to do it's work), I'm essentially increasing my loft.  So the extra loft is giving me a bit more spin than on the neutral setting and THAT's what is reducing my fade, not the closed face.  And the flight kinda behaves like that.......I'd get a much more dramatic response if I used the feature as intended - it makes a lot of sense...

I think a good approach, then, for me, would be to take it to a track man and figure out that best loft angle I need - now that I'm getting my swing tuned.  Then I can figure out how to use the adjustment feature and "allow" the face to open/close as I need for my target shot while holding that loft in place.  (Then take a REALLY good look at that club face at setup so I can pin in my head the visual of the face angle that works for me.  Bonus is I'll know my center point so I can use that for controlled bending)

or.......get a newer driver that has face angle and loft as separate, independent adjustments and set both.........(not yet...$$$$)

thanks a ton - always a return to basics

[MS256]

After reading this thread:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/58752/so-how-exactly-do-drivers-with-adjustable-hosels-work

I am not so sure that adjusting the head to closed or open doesn't affect the loft as much as spinning it in my grip.

One thing is for sure, a club built with the face open or closed has a face angle that looks like the face angle stamped on the club. A 9 degree with a 1 degree open face doesn't look like a 9 degree with a square face that has been rotated open in the grip (without changing the shaft angle).

I have already decided to not buy another adjustable driver for the other reason I mentioned. Maybe now I have two reasons.

[MS256]

Ha ha ha ha!

Now after trying to research this "adjustable" thing my head is spinning (more than usual).

Seems to be pretty much universally accepted that if the club face is open it decreases loft and if it is closed it increases loft. (Now my head hurts).

Can't get my mind around that one because if I want to hit a high fade I open the club face at address, and if I want to hit a low punch draw I close the club face at address.

Maybe "the laws of physics cease to exist in my kitchen". (From My Cousin Vinny).

[TommyBoy]

Originally Posted by MS256

Seems to be pretty much universally accepted that if the club face is open it decreases loft and if it is closed it increases loft. (Now my head hurts).

It's just the opposite!

[MS256]

Originally Posted by TommyBoy

It's just the opposite!

You know it, and I know it, but the rest of the golfing world doesn't seem to know it from all of the Google searches I did on changing the lofts on adjustable drivers. Everyone that said what you just said was quickly corrected.

Grits anyone?

[14ledo81]

If I adjust my R-11 toward the closed setting, it adds loft.  If I adjust toward the open setting, it decreases loft.  This has nothing to do with rolling the grip end in my hands.

[TommyBoy]

Originally Posted by MS256

You know it, and I know it, but the rest of the golfing world doesn't seem to know it from all of the Google searches I did on changing the lofts on adjustable drivers. Everyone that said what you just said was quickly corrected.

Grits anyone?

Then I am truly confused! I don't know anything about adjustable drivers so we must not talking about the same thing.

I am talking about open club-face vs closed. If you open the club-face...you are assuredly INCREASING the loft of the club. Just the opposite when closing.

[rehmwa]

if the club face is open it decreases loft and if it is closed it increases loft. (Now my head hurts).

Originally Posted by TommyBoy

It's just the opposite!

It's pretty much what I was saying, I think. But I suspect there's more than two steps to it.  If the club face is open (by design), and you square it up (out of habit - and thusly, you are closing the face from the intent of the design), the action to square it up decreases loft.......

and vice versa

my head now hurts - but not because it's confusing, but because the makers of the clubs don't communicate clearly just how to use what they are selling.  Just a comment that "it allows adjusting loft and face angle" is pointless unless it also explains how to hold and address the club to make it those adjustments effective.

I think the point is, if you have a loft that you like, but you use that adjustable feature to open or close the face (while maintaining that loft), you have to let that face sit open or closed and not actively try to "fix" what's not broken.......

If you just assume that the measurements of loft and open/close are based on the base of the club sitting on a nice flat surface and the shaft of the club going straight back to the operator (now you have a fixed reference) - then it makes sense, once you hold the club in your hands at address, then operator error is likely a bigger factor than any of the design choices......

That said - I really do like hitting my fairway woods - they are the 'limited' versions---non adjustable

((actually, this discussion is helping me a lot in finally understanding the mechanics of the thing.  Much better than that other thread didn't.  I appreciate it.

Also, one guy in the other thread noted a comment with the content "relative to sitting flat on the sole plate" or the like.  I think that guy understands it very clearly.  it's a key point to how loft and face would be measured...))

I also think that now, I might just like having adjustability as an option - when applied and used correctly.