Putting a ball already in motion due to wind, is that a penalty?

[SAGolfLuvr]

Dear rules gurus. My buddy says that he addressed his ball, started to putt, the wind blew his ball in motion before he could strike the ball with his putter. He continued his putting stroke, made contact with the ball, and "sent it" towards the hole. Is this a penalty? I've been looking for this situation described in writing from the USGA.

[Dormie1360]

IF the wind caused his ball to move after he addressed it, there is no penalty for moving a ball at rest.  If he started his back swing to make a stroke, and the ball started moving after that point, there is not penalty for hitting a moving ball.

Normally, although there is no penalty for striking a moving ball if it starts moving after you start  your swing, you would still be penalized for causing the ball to move if it had started to move after you had addressed the ball.  However, see the exception to 18-2b, if the ball moves because of wind, water.... you do not get penalized under 18-2.

b . Ball Moving After Address

If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke ), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke .

The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply.

14-5 . Playing Moving Ball

A player must not make a stroke at his ball while it is moving.

Exceptions:

• Ball falling off tee – Rule 11-3
• Striking the ball more than once – Rule 14-4
• Ball moving in water – Rule 14-6

When the ball begins to move only after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of his club for the stroke , he incurs no penalty under this Rule for playing a moving ball, but he is not exempt from any penalty under the following Rules:

• Ball at rest moved by player – Rule 18-2a
• Ball at rest moving after address – Rule 18-2b

[Dormie1360]

Also, see this decisions.

18-2b/11

Ball Moved by Another Agency After Address

Q. After a player has addressed his ball in play, some other agency (e.g., a ball played by another player) moves the player's ball. Is the player subject to penalty under Rule 18-2b ?

A. No. As it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause the ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply - see Exception under Rule 18-2b . In such a case where an agency directly causes a ball to move, the Rule applicable to that agency (e.g., Rule 18-1 , 18-2a , 18-3 , 18-4 or 18-5 ) applies.

The same principle applies if it is known or virtually certain that a ball in play has been moved by wind, water or some other element after the player has addressed it; there is no penalty and the ball must be played from its new location. Gravity is not in itself an element that should be considered when applying the Exception to Rule 18-2b ; therefore, unless it is known or virtually certain that some agency other than gravity (e.g., outside agency or wind) caused the ball to move after address, the player is subject to a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2b and must replace the ball. (Revised)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Also, see this decisions.

18-2b/11

Ball Moved by Another Agency After Address

Q.After a player has addressed his ball in play, some other agency (e.g., a ball played by another player) moves the player's ball. Is the player subject to penalty under Rule 18-2b?

A.No. As it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause the ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply - see Exception under Rule 18-2b. In such a case where an agency directly causes a ball to move, the Rule applicable to that agency (e.g., Rule 18-1, 18-2a, 18-3, 18-4 or 18-5) applies.

The same principle applies if it is known or virtually certain that a ball in play has been moved by wind, water or some other element after the player has addressed it; there is no penalty and the ball must be played from its new location. Gravity is not in itself an element that should be considered when applying the Exception to Rule 18-2b; therefore, unless it is known or virtually certain that some agency other than gravity (e.g., outside agency or wind) caused the ball to move after address, the player is subject to a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2b and must replace the ball. (Revised)

It's very key that it must be virtually certain that the wind was the cause of the movement.  This is a point of fact.  If there is any uncertainty, then it must be ruled against the player.

[SAGolfLuvr]

OK. Based on Dormie1360's post, the exceptions are listed. But I consider water to be an element. So rule 14-2 confuses me.

14-2 . Assistance

a . Physical Assistance and Protection from Elements

A player must not make a stroke while accepting physical assistance or protection from the elements.

14-5 says there's no penalty when the player hits a ball that the player did not cause to move, but 14-2 says the player IS NOT to make a stroke at a moving ball?? What am I missing here?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by SAGolfLuvr

OK. Based on Dormie1360's post, the exceptions are listed. But I consider water to be an element. So rule 14-2 confuses me.

14-2. Assistance

a. Physical Assistance and Protection from Elements

A player must not make a stroke while accepting physical assistance or protection from the elements.

14-5 says there's no penalty when the player hits a ball that the player did not cause to move, but 14-2 says the player IS NOT to make a stroke at a moving ball?? What am I missing here?

I'm not sure what you are asking.  What is the question?  Seems fairly straightforward - the player can't have help with protection from the weather while making a stroke.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by SAGolfLuvr

OK. Based on Dormie1360's post, the exceptions are listed. But I consider water to be an element. So rule 14-2 confuses me.

14-2. Assistance

a. Physical Assistance and Protection from Elements

A player must not make a stroke while accepting physical assistance or protection from the elements.

14-5 says there's no penalty when the player hits a ball that the player did not cause to move, but 14-2 says the player IS NOT to make a stroke at a moving ball?? What am I missing here?

14-2 does not say anyrthing about a moving ball.

The original post says he "started to putt" suggesting he had started either his backswing or forward stroke.

The bit you are missing is in Dormie's post

14-5 . Playing Moving Ball

A player must not make a stroke at his ball while it is moving.

Exceptions:

When the ball begins to move only after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of his club for the stroke , he incurs no penalty under this Rule for playing a moving ball.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by SAGolfLuvr

OK. Based on Dormie1360's post, the exceptions are listed. But I consider water to be an element. So rule 14-2 confuses me.

14-2. Assistance

a. Physical Assistance and Protection from Elements

A player must not make a stroke while accepting physical assistance or protection from the elements.

14-5 says there's no penalty when the player hits a ball that the player did not cause to move, but 14-2 says the player IS NOT to make a stroke at a moving ball?? What am I missing here?

Not sure what you are asking, either.

Yes, you can not strike a moving ball, but there are some exceptions.

No penalty for striking a moving ball if the ball starts moving after you start the backward movement of your club and you continue to make the stroke.

The exception regarding water is rather rare.  Your ball would have to be sitting in an area of flowing water.  Most likely a hazard.  You can try and hit your ball if it's moving in the moving water.

Double hitting the ball is covered in a different rule, R14-4.

However, if the player causes his ball to move , he can not avoid a penalty for playing a moving ball.  The exceptions do not apply.

Rule 14-2 Assistance is talking about something totally different.  You can not, for example, have protection (umbrella) from water falling on your head, (rain) while making a stroke.

[Dormie1360]

Let me fix the above.  Otherwise Rulesman will have to correct me.

I should have said: However, if the player causes his ball to move , he can not avoid a penalty.

If the player caused his ball to move after the backward movement of the club,  no penalty for playing a moving ball, however the player is still subject to penalty under R18 for causing his ball to move.

[SAGolfLuvr]

OK. So there is no penalty. He had two choices. He could go ahead and putt his ball that he did not cause to start moving, or he could have halted his putting action, waited for the ball to stop, replaced the ball at the original resting place, then proceed. Both with no penalty. No further questions from me.

[SAGolfLuvr]

And thanks for taking the time and effort to explain it to me. I truly appreciate it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by SAGolfLuvr

OK. So there is no penalty. He had two choices. He could go ahead and putt his ball that he did not cause to start moving, or he could have halted his putting action, waited for the ball to stop, replaced the ball at the original resting place, then proceed. Both with no penalty. No further questions from me.

This is wrong.  If the wind did cause the ball to move, then it must be played from where it came to rest without penalty.  If the player caused the ball to move, then he must replace the ball an take a 1 stroke penalty.  If he doesn't replace the ball, 2 strokes for playing from a wrong place, but no penalty for causing it to move.

[joekelly]

Wait a minute.  Can't play a stroke while accepting protection from the elements.  You mean while some other person is offering the player protection, right? Certainly we all accept the protection the pants, shirts, hats and sunglasses provide us against the 'elements' of weather.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joekelly

Wait a minute.  Can't play a stroke while accepting protection from the elements.  You mean while some other person is offering the player protection, right? Certainly we all accept the protection the pants, shirts, hats and sunglasses provide us against the 'elements' of weather.

That isn't waht the rule says.  It says:

Quote:

A player must not make a stroke while accepting physical assistance or protection from the elements.

The term "physical" is key.  Assistance means that someone is actively providing that protection.  It is necessary to read and understand all of the terminology to get a correct application of a rule.