laying off the club and getting the right elbow back in front of the hip

[keeps21]

I'm interested in everyone's views on the advice in this video. Essentially what he says it that to layoff the club and to get the right elbow tucked in front of the right hip on the downswing what you (what hogan did) need to do is to release the cup in your left wrist at the top of the backswing. [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODCzUcP6GLk[/VIDEO]

[saevel25]

Ben Hogan has about 1000 secrets, all of which were not stated by him, only by those who analyzed his swing, hmmm :p

[midwestswing]

Please forget everything this guy said. Hogan cupped the left wrist to avoid a hook. Why would he go back to a straight left wrist half way down?

[iacas]

Please forget everything this guy said. Hogan cupped the left wrist to avoid a hook. Why would he go back to a straight left wrist half way down?

He did. And it wasn't cupped at impact either.

[midwestswing]

Originally Posted by iacas

He did. And it wasn't cupped at impact either.

I didn't explain correctly. I do not believe that Hogan purposely laid it off the start downswing and I know his left wrist wasn't cupped at impact. I am saying that I don't believe in any way this was a conscious move. If you are going to purposely lay it off to start the downswing, why cup your wrist in the backswing? Just one more correction that has to be made in the downswing. Makes no sense at all.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by midwestswing

I didn't explain correctly. I do not believe that Hogan purposely laid it off the start downswing and I know his left wrist wasn't cupped at impact. I am saying that I don't believe in any way this was a conscious move. If you are going to purposely lay it off to start the downswing, why cup your wrist in the backswing? Just one more correction that has to be made in the downswing. Makes no sense at all.

I don't think "makes no sense at all" is accurate.

Plenty of players will cup the wrist, lay the club down, etc. Laying the club down is often part and parcel of taking OUT the cup in the wrist, particularly when you consider how the right elbow works in transition (going more pitchy). Some players can achieve a "pitchier" trail elbow by feeling the wrist conditions, some will feel them in different ways.

In other words, I don't think it was a "correction" at all. From a flat or even arched left wrist condition, a lay-down move could be deadly.

[cipher]

What I don't agree with is the guy saying that the cup is "necessary for a good golf swing".   I think the simplicity of moving towards a flatter left wrist in the back swing and maintaining it from the top down is better.  It helps maintain the right forearm to shaft angle better.  That being said, my wrist is not completely flat at the top, but fairly close.

[midwestswing]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't think "makes no sense at all" is accurate.

Plenty of players will cup the wrist, lay the club down, etc. Laying the club down is often part and parcel of taking OUT the cup in the wrist, particularly when you consider how the right elbow works in transition (going more pitchy). Some players can achieve a "pitchier" trail elbow by feeling the wrist conditions, some will feel them in different ways.

In other words, I don't think it was a "correction" at all. From a flat or even arched left wrist condition, a lay-down move could be deadly.

Not trying to carry this debate further than neccesary but how can you say laying the club off is not a downswing correction for a cupped left wrist at the top of the swing? If you carry that cup through impact, you would hit a high weak shot because a cup in the left wrist adds loft. Seems to me that if Hogan started the downswing with a hip rotation, letting the wrists relax and follow the lower body into impact would automatically release the cup in the left wrist. My personal opinion on the cup in the left wrist is that he would do this in the backswing to keep the clubhead outside of his hands during the first half of the backswing. This would help him drop the club on plane during the downswing. Just my opinion.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by midwestswing

Not trying to carry this debate further than neccesary but how can you say laying the club off is not a downswing correction for a cupped left wrist at the top of the swing?

Because you don't have to make that correction. Plenty of players on the PGA Tour level cup at the top and don't lay the shaft down in transition. It's perfectly possible to JUST reduce the cupping in the left wrist (or play with a strong grip and have a cupped lead wrist at impact).

For Hogan these pieces were compatible. Again, Hogan could not have laid the shaft down like he does with a Dustin Johnson position at the top.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by iacas

Because you don't have to make that correction. Plenty of players on the PGA Tour level cup at the top and don't lay the shaft down in transition. It's perfectly possible to JUST reduce the cupping in the left wrist (or play with a strong grip and have a cupped lead wrist at impact).

For Hogan these pieces were compatible. Again, Hogan could not have laid the shaft down like he does with a Dustin Johnson position at the top.

Bump. So what is the difference in shot making between laying the club down in transition and having A4 transition down from an already laid off position for most golfers?  Why is it taught more to take the club back, in and high and lay the shaft down on plane in transition?  It seems like a more complicated move to me.

[bjwestner]

This is very interesting regarding the right elbow....I have tried to tuck the right elbow more so that I can get it right in front of the hip on the downswing.  The problem that I have with this is that many times for me anyway, this leads to the backswing coming too much inside and ultimately in an over the top swing.  I find that I have better results when I make sure and focus on extending my arms fully so that I do not come over the top.

With that being said though, every once in a while I will execute perfectly where I can feel my right elbow in the right place and I know in that split second before I hit the ball that it's going to be a good shot.  It's a great feeling when it happens.  It's almost like time freezes just for a quick second and my right elbow is in the "slot".

As for the left wrist.....that's something that I worked on quite a bit during the winter.  I was fighting a slice especially with my driver during the early part of last winter.  I found that making sure that my left wrist is not cupped at the top makes a huge difference.  I guess in doing this I was laying off, although I'm not sure how much.  It did fix my slice though.  Once in a while this will still happen and I'll realize that my left wrist is cupped at the top which almost always results in a slice/push to the right.  I've noticed that when this happens my tempo is usually getting a bit too quick and slowing down just a bit helps a lot.

I'm no expert so I do not know if this is "right" by the experts or whatever, but it's something that I have gone through and so far (knock on wood), have been able to fix on my own....

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cipher

Bump. So what is the difference in shot making between laying the club down in transition and having A4 transition down from an already laid off position for most golfers?  Why is it taught more to take the club back, in and high and lay the shaft down on plane in transition?  It seems like a more complicated move to me.

It depends on the angle of the shaft in the takeaway. Some people don't take the club back on the delivery angle in the takeaway, so they lay the shaft down. It's almost independent of the cupping or arching of the left wrist.

Would it be easier to take the club back a bit more "on plane" and just leave it there? Perhaps. But some "lay the shaft down" a little pretty effectively, and still achieve all 5 Simple Keys®, so why mess with it?

Some (fewer, though) go the other way:

Note that Dufner's elbow is already pretty darn "down in front". :)

Also, you don't NEED to have a pitch elbow to play good golf. There are major winners that don't have it - quite a few.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by iacas

It depends on the angle of the shaft in the takeaway. Some people don't take the club back on the delivery angle in the takeaway, so they lay the shaft down. It's almost independent of the cupping or arching of the left wrist.

Would it be easier to take the club back a bit more "on plane" and just leave it there? Perhaps. But some "lay the shaft down" a little pretty effectively, and still achieve all 5 Simple Keys®, so why mess with it?

Makes sense.  It is probably almost impossible for most of us to take the club back on plane anyway.  There is probably a million questions that are bouncing around in my empty head but I will spare you the trouble.  Thanks for the reply.

I have noticed that if I come under plane slightly(this feels to me an on plane take away) and lay the club off at A4 I don't need to consciously think about key #3 and can still hit nice shots.  If I try to add wrist hinge and take the club head above plane key#3 does not happen naturally.  You see so many different A4 positions on tour, there definitely is not one way to arrive at a good impact position.  As you say there are different ways you can achieve all 5 keys.

Originally Posted by iacas

Also, you don't NEED to have a pitch elbow to play good golf. There are major winners that don't have it - quite a few.

Yeah but it looks sexier.

[bukifvr]

This is an interesting thread.  Not so much for the cupped left wrist or the laying off of the club, but more for the getting the right elbow in front of the right hip.  I've struggled for a long time with inconsistent ball striking as the clubs got longer, and a backswing that is too long and wrists that collapse at the top.  I asked myself why do I hit my pitching wedge better than my 5 iron.  After much thought my conclusion was that when I swing a shorter club my right elbow feels more connected to my right side.  I paid attention and I noticed that with longer clubs my right elbow would extend away from my body like a batter in baseball pumping his right elbow.  I looked at the swing sequences of several tour players and noticed that none of them had this kind of position.  Rather their right elbow seemed more tucked in and their right forearm more vertical.  So made this my swing thought, to keep my right elbow more tucked in, more connected to my right side.  By doing this I noticed several effects on my swing.  First I noticed it encouraged my upper body to rotate more on the backswing.  Second, it shortened my backswing and my wrists don't collapse at the top.  Thirdly, it encourages my clubhead path to be more in to out, as opposed to out to in. I think I was casting my club,  And lastly, after reading this thread, my right elbow is at or more in front of my right hip on the downswing, which I'm guessing by this thread is a good thing.  Anyways, the result of all this is that my ball striking has improved a great deal with my longer clubs including my driver.  SO to me the right elbow is really important in my swing. I don't know if all this makes sense, but that's how it seems to me.  What do you guys think?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by bukifvr

This is an interesting thread.  Not so much for the cupped left wrist or the laying off of the club, but more for the getting the right elbow in front of the right hip.  I've struggled for a long time with inconsistent ball striking as the clubs got longer, and a backswing that is too long and wrists that collapse at the top.  I asked myself why do I hit my pitching wedge better than my 5 iron.  After much thought my conclusion was that when I swing a shorter club my right elbow feels more connected to my right side.  I paid attention and I noticed that with longer clubs my right elbow would extend away from my body like a batter in baseball pumping his right elbow.  I looked at the swing sequences of several tour players and noticed that none of them had this kind of position.  Rather their right elbow seemed more tucked in and their right forearm more vertical.  So made this my swing thought, to keep my right elbow more tucked in, more connected to my right side.  By doing this I noticed several effects on my swing.  First I noticed it encouraged my upper body to rotate more on the backswing.  Second, it shortened my backswing and my wrists don't collapse at the top.  Thirdly, it encourages my clubhead path to be more in to out, as opposed to out to in. I think I was casting my club,  And lastly, after reading this thread, my right elbow is at or more in front of my right hip on the downswing, which I'm guessing by this thread is a good thing.  Anyways, the result of all this is that my ball striking has improved a great deal with my longer clubs including my driver.  SO to me the right elbow is really important in my swing. I don't know if all this makes sense, but that's how it seems to me.  What do you guys think?

I think you'll really like what this thread has cookin'>>>>  http://thesandtrap.com/t/54238/elbow-position-and-its-effects-on-the-downswing

[midwestswing]

Here is my opinion on the right elbow. It's not a fundamental to a good swing. At the end of the day, impact is really the only fundamental to the golf swing. The different routes each player takes to get there is as personal as a fingerprint. I think it's very easy to get so distracted with our swings, we forget we are playing golf. No one ever got paid for a pretty swing. I know lots of guys who have great looking swings that will never break 80. I have a buddy who almost broke 80 for the first time last weekend. Missed a putt on 18 for a 79. As we were talking over a beer afterwards, he said he couldn't believe he hit one in the hazard on 16. He was worried about his swing instead of the 36 putts he had!!! Good luck everyone!

[virtuoso]

Originally Posted by midwestswing

At the end of the day, impact is really the only fundamental to the golf swing.

I agree! How do we get there?

[bukifvr]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I think you'll really like what this thread has cookin'>>>>  http://thesandtrap.com/t/54238/elbow-position-and-its-effects-on-the-downswing

Thanks for the link to this thread, I've only scanned it briefly, but it looks like what I have been talking about above.  Thanks again.