Big Break Mexico

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

I respectfully disagree.

I just about fell down laughing there.  nice one.

[sacm3bill]

Here's what's interesting to me: Any of the equalizing techniques that have been or could be proposed (looking at what club is being used for the second shot, using average drive distances, etc.) could just as well be applied to two golfers of the same sex but of different length or other abilities. This never happens in professional tournaments of course, because we don't care who the best golfer is once length or some other ability has been somehow equalized to make it "fair" - we just want to know who the best golfer is.

As rehmwa said, there's a handicap system in place to allow anyone to compete against anyone else, including men vs women, but BB isn't using handicaps - it's about finding the best golfer. But obviously, that's hard to do when men are competing against women, unless the women are given a length advantage. So, I understand that they have to do that, but by the same token, it's going to be hard to know if the winner was really the best golfer if they were playing from shorter distances.

I think the only way to have a fair co-ed BB season is to have two-person man/woman teams. If a team loses, both contestants are gone. Whatever team wins it all, each player from that team gets the same prize.

[TJBam]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Why not use their average drive distance to determine tee box locations?

That would take a lot of assumption.  But for the heck of it, let's start assuming.

The top 5 average distances off the tee on the PGA are hovering around 305 yards.  These male players average around 6'2".

The top 5 average distances off the tee on the LPGA are around 270 yards.  These female players average around 5'8".  Most 5'10" and one 5'7" mixed in.

Now, the difference between these drives is a mere 35 yards.  The best ladies drive it 88.5% of the distance of their male counterparts.

So it seems that this example would call for a lady's course to be 88.5% of the distance of the course of her male counterpart.  Keep in mind though that the disparity between drives and the sexes is amplified in our world of non-professional golf as ladies are not as involved as we would like them to be.  For all I care, tee it up at the 150 and let's bring out the girls and the SKORTS!!

Not taking a side either way, just pointing out that the difference is not too much by our most accurate estimate of measurement, which is the PGA v LPGA.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

So, I understand that they have to do that, but by the same token, it's going to be hard to claim the winner was really the best golfer if they were playing from shorter distances.

I think the only way to have a fair co-ed BB season is to have two-person man/woman teams. If a team loses, both contestants are gone. Whatever team wins it all, each player from that team gets the same prize.

But who would do that?  If Taylor wins tonight, she will be proclaimed the winner of the Big Break, but I don't think anybody will go so far as to say she's the "best golfer."

Heck, a lot of people think that the "best" golfers are both gone already, so even if Matt wins, most people won't call him the best golfer either.

EDIT:  Oh, and regarding your last comment ... somewhere way up-thread somebody said that the last time the had a co-ed competition where the last two were a man and a woman, they did end up giving them both a prize (the pro tournament exemption) ... so it'll be interesting to see if they do that tonight too.

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Here's what's interesting to me: Any of the equalizing techniques that have been or could be proposed (looking at what club is being used for the second shot, using average drive distances, etc.) could just as well be applied to two golfers of the same sex but of different length or other abilities. This never happens in professional tournaments of course, because we don't care who the best golfer is once length or some other ability has been somehow equalized to make it "fair" - we just want to know who the best golfer is.

As rehmwa said, there's a handicap system in place to allow anyone to compete against anyone else, including men vs women, but BB isn't using handicaps - it's about finding the best golfer. But obviously, that's hard to do when men are competing against women, unless the women are given a length advantage. So, I understand that they have to do that, but by the same token, it's going to be hard to know if the winner was really the best golfer if they were playing from shorter distances.

I think the only way to have a fair co-ed BB season is to have two-person man/woman teams. If a team loses, both contestants are gone. Whatever team wins it all, each player from that team gets the same prize.

that's a good post.  I like the idea of a season with co-ed teams.  Even teams that change around through the series.  Ending with the two best men paired with the two best women.  Win a challenge and you get to pick your partner, etc.

I brought up the handicap simply because, we seem to have a crew of males, presumably, pounding their chests and curling their back hair here, totally outraged that the women are weaker than the men.  Yet these same "alphas" would cry "VICTORY" when taking $5 (or a nice Rolex) off of their opponent if they won a match due to their handicap edging them out rather than raw score.

either way, it's fun to read the comments

(to the 88% length post, that's excellent - but I'd set up the tees such that, if you play a hole in regulation, I'd want the tees to drive a goal of either gender hitting the same club on their approach shot - but only on approach shots that would force a longer club than, say, an 8i or so - there might need to be some refinement for Par 5's, as that would actually advantage men significantly.....)

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by TJBam

That would take a lot of assumption.  But for the heck of it, let's start assuming.

The top 5 average distances off the tee on the PGA are hovering around 305 yards.  These male players average around 6'2".

The top 5 average distances off the tee on the LPGA are around 270 yards.  These female players average around 5'8".  Most 5'10" and one 5'7" mixed in.

Now, the difference between these drives is a mere 35 yards.  The best ladies drive it 88.5% of the distance of their male counterparts.

So it seems that this example would call for a lady's course to be 88.5% of the distance of the course of her male counterpart.  Keep in mind though that the disparity between drives and the sexes is amplified in our world of non-professional golf as ladies are not as involved as we would like them to be.  For all I care, tee it up at the 150 and let's bring out the girls and the SKORTS!!

Not taking a side either way, just pointing out that the difference is not too much by our most accurate estimate of measurement, which is the PGA v LPGA.

I was referring to the average drive distance of Matt and Taylor not the PGA & LPGA Tours Top 5.

[TJBam]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I was referring to the average drive distance of Matt and Taylor not the PGA & LPGA Tours Top 5.

newtogolf I am not trying to challenge your idea but was merely diving into the male v female tee box topic as it pertains to the Big Break.  Maybe it was a little OT.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by rehmwa

evolution and anthropology is a valid path of discussion, but it's hazy at best

From what I've seen (personal observation only) those activities and few others do not require a separate category at even the very top levels.  I know in a couple activities, the only valid reason for a separate women's category is to just "encourage" women to participate.  In skydiving (just one example) - even though the Open category is the very top level of competition that consists of men and women in any combination available - and at the top levels, the world champs in many years are proportionally represented by co-ed teams.  But, invariably, if a team is an all women's team, they always choose to compete in the Women's category even though clearly eligible for the Open group and many of these teams are clearly competitive in that category, too.  Many of the top woman competitors will even forego being on a higher level co-ed team, just to be on the women's team.....

In other words, even when a separate women's category is not necessary, women will still choose to have one, thus perpetuating the practice - all the while proudly proclaiming pride in their gender, even in the act of self segregating - in fact, the act of self segregation being stated as a REASON for that pride.

I don't understand that at all - if you can have an activity that allows an opportunity to compete on an equal level (shooting, archery, darts, certain endurance sports, etc), I'd think the tendency would be to avoid segregation at all costs.  But the opposite is, from my observations at least, just the opposite - and for really goofy reasons.

for that matter - one can't even have this discussion about people at the top levels, their performance is, by definition, outlier performance.

There might be a path to discussing it for those at an average level of performance though.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I don't know.  A woman has actually won a men's major bowling tournament.  Not just qualified or was given a sponsors exemption to "compete," but actually WON a MAJOR bowling tournament.  (Kelly Kulick - 2010 TOC)  Also, just this last weekend after the simultaneous US Open mens and womens finals, they had a $10,000 "battle of the sexes" where the two winners (Wes Malott and Liz Johnson) went head to head, and the woman won that one too.

In regards to bowling, the difference is smaller, I believe, because power is not a requirement to be a great bowler.  Several of the best mens bowlers out there are finesse players.

I would think the other sports you mentioned would be similar.  Once the strength aspect is gone, I think we're all on equal footing.

These are both very interesting points.  And once again I don't really have any knowledge of these sports, but will continue to talk about it anyway.

The Major bowling victory is a good example - but is it anecdotal?  Just because there is one really good woman who beat the men once or twice - does that imply that overall they can compete with the men?  Knowing more about bowling than I do, would you say that if you took 20 male bowlers from the middle of the pack and 20 females from the middle of their pack and put them in a big competition - would the men come out on top?

And to both points - I'd bet that in many of these sports (skydiving not withstanding - I'd have no idea on that one), the prize money for the men's category is more.  Maybe women naturally like to have their own league - but to the detriment of winnings?  Do lady bowlers (or whatever) just dislike money?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

So, I understand that they have to do that, but by the same token, it's going to be hard to claim the winner was really the best golfer if they were playing from shorter distances.

I think the only way to have a fair co-ed BB season is to have two-person man/woman teams. If a team loses, both contestants are gone. Whatever team wins it all, each player from that team gets the same prize.

But who would do that?  If Taylor wins tonight, she will be proclaimed the winner of the Big Break, but I don't think anybody will go so far as to say she's the "best golfer."

Heck, a lot of people think that the "best" golfers are both gone already, so even if Matt wins, most people won't call him the best golfer either.

That's true of course, but I think you know what I mean... If it had been all male contestants, you might think the best golfers were out early but the eventual winner could still proudly say they outlasted all the others in a series of fair fights. (Similar to many other single elimination tournaments like NCAA basketball - the best team might not make it all the way if they have one bad game, but the overall winner is still considered the winner.)  If a female contestant wins on BB though, who knows if maybe she would've lost, or been eliminated a long time ago, if the arbitrary length advantage the women were given had been 5 (or 10 or 20 or whatever) yards less on every hole. I'm just saying that because of that, there will be an asterisk next to the win in a lot of people's minds.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

EDIT:  Oh, and regarding your last comment ... somewhere way up-thread somebody said that the last time the had a co-ed competition where the last two were a man and a woman, they did end up giving them both a prize (the pro tournament exemption) ... so it'll be interesting to see if they do that tonight too.

I saw that season - yeah that was cool, very generous of the producers... the guy who had lost got real emotional when he found out... And yeah, I was thinking they do the same thing tonight.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

The Major bowling victory is a good example - but is it anecdotal?  Just because there is one really good woman who beat the men once or twice - does that imply that overall they can compete with the men?  Knowing more about bowling than I do, would you say that if you took 20 male bowlers from the middle of the pack and 20 females from the middle of their pack and put them in a big competition - would the men come out on top?

And to both points - I'd bet that in many of these sports (skydiving not withstanding - I'd have no idea on that one), the prize money for the men's category is more.  Maybe women naturally like to have their own league - but to the detriment of winnings?  Do lady bowlers (or whatever) just dislike money?

I don't have an answer for that.  There really isn't a women's professional bowling league anymore, so other than the handful of top women that are willing to compete with the men there aren't really many more out there.  I think there are currently 10 women who are actually PBA members - one of whom is my coach, Missy Parkin. ;)  I would probably argue, though, that the difference is mainly based on interest.  For every 10 young women who are avid bowlers, there are probably 50, 60 or even 80 young men.  (The numbers are pulled out of my rear end, but at my bowling center I can count on one hand the number of young women who take it seriously, so I have some basis for the conclusion)  Based on that alone, there are going to be a heck of a lot more world class male bowlers out there than female and it has nothing to do with strength or power.  Same reason why there are so many asians on the top of the LPGA leaderboards ... simply because more of them try.  Dominican baseball players, Canadian hockey players, etc, etc.

[bottlesflying]

I didn't think you'd understand me otherwise.

[bottlesflying]

They should have a men's BB and a women's BB to avoid having an asterisk beside the winner's name.

* played from ladies' tee.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by bottlesflying

They should have a men's BB and a women's BB to avoid having an asterisk beside the winner's name.

* played from ladies' tee.

Big Break is a reality show.  The immunity and elimination challenges are designed to be entertaining not to determine who the best golfer is.  The team concept for this season made it even more difficult for the best overall golfer to come out on top.  Taylor made the finals because she's a good golfer but also because she was on the best performing team overall.

Using your logic, if Matt wins should we put an asterisk next to his name?

* won against a female competitor

[bottlesflying]

There would be no need for an asterisk since giving up a bunch of yardage doesn't work to your benefit.

[bottlesflying]

Congratulations, Taylor*.

* played from ladies tee

[JetFan1983]

Making a comment-less post to remove the spoiler above for everyone just browsing threads and not this one specifically.

[bottlesflying]

Taylor * - what a lucky ass ****.

* played from panties tee

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by bottlesflying

Taylor * - what a lucky ass ****.

* played from panties tee

Dude. Stop being an idiot. Most people DVR the show. Enclose that in spoilers.