Slicing with an Inside Out Path

[LI Hacker]

I too have hit my fair share of the driver flops. Went to the range last night to work on the driver and before heading over I double-checked my setup in the mirror at home and at least for me I try to copy as much of Rory's swing as possible (don't quite possess some of the same athleticism to take all his moves) and noticed that I didn't have nearly enough axis tilt at address.

I re-watched some video of my practice swings and noticed along with my lower body moving laterally forward my head and upper body while not moving as far forward was definitely moving forward.

This small change in setup, although feels very different right now, I noticed on video with some practice swings had me finally keeping my head steady on the downswing and most importantly behind the ball while also creating some secondary axis tilt. Took this to the range and my driver is nowhere near fixed and I'm just taking swings at a very slow speed but when I swing slow and controlled I was getting a nice push draw to straight draw ball flight. Ball was only going about 180-190 but I figure once I ratchet it up to full speed I will get the carry I'm looking for. Right now then when speeding things up, I fall into bad habits and push-slice or even snap off a few hooks.

[EverythingGolf]

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

Ok maybe I wasn't clear enough. The dotted line in the diagram is your intended target line i.e. where you want the ball to start on it's flight. Body alignment doesn't come into a discusiion on ball flight laws. Granted when trying to achieve any of these flights you need to think about body alignment but the body has no impact on the fundamental laws of mechanics.

norrisedgar, The statement in bold is not correct, the dotted line is the target line/body alignment. It does not mean it is the start direct of the ball. The black arrow is the start direction and the red arrow is the path/swing direction.

[norrisedgar]

norrisedgar, The statement in bold is not correct, the dotted line is the target line/body alignment . It does not mean it is the start direct of the ball. The black arrow is the start direction and the red arrow is the path/swing direction.

Like I said before the body line and target line are not the same thing. I drew a diagram with an explanation to show this. It is quite possible to aim the body perpendicular to the intended target line (though I wouldn't recommend it as a consistent method lol). Also saying 'body alignment/ line' is very confusing. What part of the body are we talking about? Feet line? Hip line? Shoulder line etc. These can all be pointing in a different direction.

[EverythingGolf]

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

Like I said before the body line and target line are not the same thing. I drew a diagram with an explanation to show this. It is quite possible to aim the body perpendicular to the intended target line (though I wouldn't recommend it as a consistent method lol).

Also saying 'body alignment/ line' is very confusing. What part of the body are we talking about? Feet line? Hip line? Shoulder line etc. These can all be pointing in a different direction.

The diagram is showing the ball flight laws if the body alignment, feet, hips and shoulders are square to the target line. I understand you can aim in different directions. If you aim 10 yards to the right of your target you would be better off hitting a pull draw then a push draw, it all depends on what shot you are comfortable with.

[iacas]

None of the discussion of the graphic is really all that on-topic.

Can you hit a slice with a path that's inside-out (relative to the target line)? Yes.

Path +1

Face +4

It's rare, because most people slice with a face pointing left, but it can happen.

[norrisedgar]

Yeah I agree it's fairly rare but I manage to do it more often than is good for my game lol

[Wardy]

I've been recently experiencing the same issue as OP.

Worked out that my extension wasn't good enough on the backswing, therefore causing and in to out swingpath and constant horrible slicing.

Totally cured my slice since I've implemented this and has also improved my ball striking on other clubs

[LI Hacker]

Originally Posted by Wardy

I've been recently experiencing the same issue as OP.

Worked out that my extension wasn't good enough on the backswing, therefore causing and in to out swingpath and constant horrible slicing.

Totally cured my slice since I've implemented this and has also improved my ball striking on other clubs

Can you clarify what you mean by extension and maybe what changes you made to your swing?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

Yeah I agree it's fairly rare but I manage to do it more often than is good for my game lol

Agree it's rare but when you do see it it tends to be a single digit handicap golfer.  Higher handicap golfers have the face left of the target.

[JonMA1]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

Been there, it's frustrating.

Sometimes I like to consider one part of my game to be where I want it, then try and polish up absolutely everything else in one long practice session, or pick a club or ball flight I can't remotely hit and decide to master it that day.

Well, that's not a patient strategy. No one has the ability to simply take on changing their whole game at once. Even though I am willing to practice until I'm spent just about every day, and have talent, and a pretty good knowledge of the swing, I got stuck on a wild goose chase over 10 different aspects of my game. Better to focus on one single thing at a time, even if that's just path or setup or face control. Sometimes I'll be working on one thing and end up subconsciously adding power or a trajectory change and mess up everything.

Working strictly on a drill for an in to out path can mean you still succeed if you whiff entirely, or don't hit it solid, or hit it off the range. It's easy to get frustrated, because you're not hitting good shots. But if you are really trying to ingrain that one aspect of your swing, you are still making progress. Results sometimes take years, like Tiger's swing change under Foley. He had all the resources, talent, and instruction in the world behind him and still played like a scrub for a good while. And he was already decent when he started. He wanted to get better and was willing to pick apart his game entirely.

Personally, drawing the ball is a combination of setup and my backswing for me. If I make a proper setup, even though it sometimes feels odd (when I'm having an off day and have no clue what I'm doing), I hit 70% of my shots acceptably solid just from that. If I don't set up properly, nothing else matters and it's just a question of how bad the miss is going to be. My downswing is not conscious, all I focus on is how aggressively I want to hit and where the little white ball is.

Mostly the setup problem I have is making sure I have enough space between myself and the ball. I've had to step through my shot ala Gary Player if I overdo this, but it seems like every time I do it's a good shot.

As for the backswing, the main mistake I make is getting my body, especially my hips, between my hands/arms and their spot at impact and end up getting stuck on the downswing. If everything's out of the way you can just deliver the club, if there's something in the way you need to reroute or change your timing to get through the shot. You want the most efficient path possible with extension for more leverage, and you'll maximize your speed and keep your alignments solid. It doesn't require much of an in to out path to achieve the desired effect.

So I'm not an instructor but there's a few things to think about. I can't guarantee if they'll work for you, but the 5SK program should help if you stick with it, as will posting your swing on this site.

There's a lot of good advice in here and I fall into the bad habits you've described in your first couple of paragraphs. I've read many times that working on a good swing may often result in a lot of poor shots at first and that's ok. The problem is, I'd hate to think I'm working hard on a swing with poor mechanics. I tried a lot of variations on the backswing, wrist hinge, plane, grip, etc,  to see if I could "luck" into the right combination. I've tried to focus on some of the suggestions you made, specifically moving the hips out of the way and bringing my hands through from that angle. I practiced at a much slower swing speed, concentrating on keeping my hands in front of the clubhead, and maintaining the flat left wrist through impact. Not only does the inside to out path feel awkward (I just couldn't seem to make decent contact), the results were a lot of push slices (open face) or pulls (closed face?). When I did get the ball starting straight, it tended to fade which simply doesn't make sense. Obviously, my path isn't what it feels like or what I'm seeing. By the way, all of this practice has been with a 5 iron and in my yard which is not the ideal surface from which to develop a new swing.

Anyway, the good news is that I don't think I wrecked my "old" swing. I went back to it tonight, making decent contact and hitting shots high and straight with a little fade on some of them. My current plan is to learn how to make better contact - maybe compress the ball more as I don't currently take much of a divot. My distances are weak (something I'd hoped a draw might improve), so if I could get 10 more yards at out my irons this year just by tweaking this swing, I'd be happy - for a while anyway.

Thanks for the help.

[MEfree]

None of the discussion of the graphic is really all that on-topic. Can you hit a slice with a path that's inside-out (relative to the target line)? Yes. Path +1 Face +4 It's rare, because most people slice with a face pointing left, but it can happen.

Do you think that some players who think they are hitting a push slice are really hitting a straight or even a slight pull slice because the player hitting the ball has a less than perfect perspective of where their shot actually starts?

[Wardy]

Originally Posted by LI Hacker

Can you clarify what you mean by extension and maybe what changes you made to your swing?

Basically I used to have my left arm turned when driving as it helped me keep a straight arm. After a lesson a while ago, I was told tension is the killer, so I adopted the correct 'hang the arms down in front of you' relaxed approach to my swing and since then I've struggled to keep my left arm straight with the driver. I realised recently that I wasn't extending my reach with the left arm on the backswing, causing flex in my left arm and therefore creating an in-to-out swing path

As a result my club was in the wrong position at the top of the swing, see below:

Give it a go and see if it helps at all, worked wonders for me. Hope that makes sense!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Do you think that some players who think they are hitting a push slice are really hitting a straight or even a slight pull slice because the player hitting the ball has a less than perfect perspective of where their shot actually starts?

Maybe once in great while, but typically, no, not really. Virtually nobody hits a push-slice regularly. I can count on one hand the number of people I've seen who play a fade or slice that starts right of the target.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by iacas

Maybe once in great while, but typically, no, not really. Virtually nobody hits a push-slice regularly. I can count on one hand the number of people I've seen who play a fade or slice that starts right of the target.

You will be adding a finger in August.

Originally Posted by mvmac

Agree it's rare but when you do see it it tends to be a single digit handicap golfer.  Higher handicap golfers have the face left of the target.

Slice might be a little harsh and tight fade a bit too generous.  A push no doubt.  Last year I played weak OTT pull fade and kept it in play.  This year things are gettin' pushy.  It is funny though because I hit draws with everything up to 3i and 3w at will.   Down and out with those I guess must be helping with consistency.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Do you think that some players who think they are hitting a push slice are really hitting a straight or even a slight pull slice because the player hitting the ball has a less than perfect perspective of where their shot actually starts?

If it is generally seen in lower handicap golfers, they should know how the ball is starting in relation to where their feet and body are aiming I would think, right?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cipher

You will be adding a finger in August.

You're a 4.5. You don't play a slice that starts right of the target. It doesn't count if you're working on something and your typical shot shape is a little unpredictable or goofy right now.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by iacas

You're a 4.5. You don't play a slice that starts right of the target. It doesn't count if you're working on something and your typical shot shape is a little unpredictable or goofy right now.

"Play"..no, but it happens about once or twice every nine holes where I push "fade", not slice.  If I feel I am having starting line issues I just open the stance up and it is generally not a big deal.  But yes a lot of it is because I have been working constantly on something new.

I hope my last post did not come across to everyone as reflecting badly in regards to what I have learned through the instruction so far.  I was exaggerating a bit on a minor issue with the driver that is costing me 1-2 strokes per nine holes.  I am hitting 60% FIR with 20-30yds more distance so far in spite of everything I am changing which I think is pretty good.  I would like to get back to 70%+ where I was last year and that will come.  But I have not really worked on the driver swing save for a couple of recent range sessions on my own.  I have really only worked on my iron swing which is so much improved.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cipher

"Play"..no, but it happens about once or twice every nine holes where I push "fade", not slice.

Right. So that's not what I'm saying - that's not your pattern. It's not your shot. It's an error, an aberration.

Thank you for clearing that up though. I appreciate it.

[LI Hacker]

Just as a little bit of an update, I realized my problem was the clubface being wide open at impact and after having tons of people including an instructor tell me "turn your wrists/hands over" and that only causing me to cast the club including with the irons which I had previously been striking well I videotaped some practice swings and noticed my forearms/wrists were rotating coming off the ball in my takeaway. That little move was causing me to come into impact with the face wide open. Went to the range last night and worked on taking the club away in one piece and trying to have the face "look" at the ball for as long as possible and of course no more push slice/fade. My driver is far from perfect still but last night was the first time in a long time my drives would have all been in play.

My reason for updating it is because of a thread I stumbled upon where I think it was Zeph calling out that strengthening the grip or quick fixes like that are merely band-aids and hiding a larger issue, most likely forearm rotation in the takeaway. This may not help out any of you guys but I have always read, specifially on here, that the release should be natural and at least for me problems in my takeaway have caused my downswing to naturally square the clubface without any conscious actions.

As usual, a big thanks to everyone who contributes. Hopefully someone is suffering from something similar and this helps out