"Hey! While we're young!" - USGA Pace of Play

[David in FL]

Hey Iacas don't mean to pick on you. I've been around many golf courses for the past 50 years. What makes a good course is a team effort between the resident pro, management & the greens keeper. I'm sorry, but the one team member who in my opinion is useless is the resident golf pro. IMO he's supposed to manage the tee times, the first tee box & the pace of play. Instead, today resident pro's are business majors and have gotten away from managing the course as was done in the old days. IMO there's nobody watching the chicken coop anymore and the players have had a free hand at doing as they please on the course for a lot of years. Years ago the resident pro was in charge of the course. Today the resident pro is nothing more than a bean counter & hired to increase revenue for the owner.  When was the last time you met the resident pro at a public course??? I'm not happy with Arnie, Tiger, Jack & Anika for joining the bandwagon to place public blame on national TV against the player where a larger portion of the problem lies in the hands of management. Take the damm beer cart off the course. What do you expect players to do??? Ignore the flesh shaking all over while she's smiling at you holding a cold bud with your name on it???????? Most of the blood is leaving the players head by now. I'm waiting for Glen Nager to get over the high from the US Open and start leaning on the Management teams at most courses to come up with a viable solution. If the PGA continues to televise 6 hour rounds showing every putt analyized from every possible angle while Johnny Miller flaps his gums for 5hrs straight how Tigers career is over because he missed a putt. Do you expect the public to ignore the pros or follow suit???? Kids learn by watching also. Kids today don't buy the "Do as I say and not as I do" BS Do you think Taylor Made or Callaway has helped speed up play??? Nope. Now golfers can hit the ball further in the woods with a 45-1/2" driver. I haven't seen golf speed up since the club makers started making easier clubs to hit. Get the picture. All courses should start by adhereing to the 10 min intervals at the 1st Tee box. If your able to hit or not. The Pro should be out on the 1st Tee Box reviewing the pace of play rules with every foursome. Explaining what is expected of them and doing his/her job. Not hiding the the air conditioned office. I've played the TPC in Norton, MA 100 times. You know you can buy a case of beer packed in a cooler at the snack shack on the 10th hole there. So, who's fooling who about the pace of play. Management is drooling while they charge $8 per beer on the course. They want more players so they can sell more beer.

Ah yes, it's the beverage cart's fault..... You're not real big on personal responsibility and accountability are you? If you ask me, it's that type of attitude that has a lot to do with the problem. Someone else is to blame. Not the adults making the bad choices and actually causing the problem.

[BugDude]

This time of year in Florida, the courses are not crowded, yet there are still pace of play problems.  I mostly see two-somes playing and many of them are slower than Christmas.  It's not the fault of the pro or the course staff, but the players.  I've started off with no one in front of me, flying around the course and then come to a standstill on the 4th or 5th hole.  Piled up like a crash on the interstate and it is one group fiddle farting around holding everyone up.  I tend to just jump a couple holes and come back and catch those later when there are clear holes in front of the offending group.  Based on what I see on the courses I play, it's on the players themselves.

I don't play early on Saturday or Sunday mornings anymore because that's when the courses are crowded and play is slow.  It just isn't fun.  I'd rather battle the heat and humidity in the afternoon than slow play.  There's one course close to my house that I never play, and it is because it is always crowded, it is short and a lot of people wait for greens to clear to tee off on a lot of holes, and most of the people on that course will never let a single play through.  It's just aggravating to play there.  Is it the course's fault that it is crowded or that the people aren't friendly?

[MS256]

Now I'm confused about who to blame for the idiots in front of me Sunday. After they each took about 5 or 6 strokes to reach a par three and took about 15 minutes to putt out they decided to replace all four balls and try the putts again. All while 3 groups were lined up at the tee box waiting to play the hole.

My son and I just decided to call it a day so at least the other 2 groups got to move up a slot.

Couldn't have been the beverage cart's fault because there isn't one at that course. Couldn't have been the golf pro's fault because there isn't one at that course. Couldn't have been the tee off schedule because there were only 6 groups on the course. Just turned out that all of us were playing along just fine until we all caught them on the last 3 holes.

Is it possible that it could have been the idiots themselves that were to blame?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

What makes a good course is a team effort between the resident pro, management & the greens keeper.

You clearly feel that way. Yet at the end of the day, the players will basically determine the pace for themselves.

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

I'm sorry, but the one team member who in my opinion is useless is the resident golf pro. IMO he's supposed to manage the tee times, the first tee box & the pace of play. Instead, today resident pro's are business majors and have gotten away from managing the course as was done in the old days.

Yup. They've gotten away from that because they have to, you know, run the golf course . But I'll tell you what: you're right. There wouldn't be any pace of play issues at all if there were no golf courses because nobody managed to run the business, appease members, sell merchandise, answer the phones, etc.

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

When was the last time you met the resident pro at a public course???

Uhm, the last time I was at a public course. I routinely see the resident pro at the course. They're often the person I speak to when I set up my round, as well. I have a standing relationship with the one at Whispering Woods, for example.

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

I'm not happy with Arnie, Tiger, Jack & Anika for joining the bandwagon to place public blame on national TV against the player where a larger portion of the problem lies in the hands of management.

Again, I do not agree that a larger portion of the problem lies with management.

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

Take the damm beer cart off the course. What do you expect players to do??? Ignore the flesh shaking all over while she's smiling at you holding a cold bud with your name on it???????? Most of the blood is leaving the players head by now.

Yeah, that'll solve the problem. And what about slow play on courses where there's no beverage cart? Kinda shoots that whole argument in the heinie, no?

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

If the PGA continues to televise 6 hour rounds showing every putt analyized from every possible angle while Johnny Miller flaps his gums for 5hrs straight how Tigers career is over because he missed a putt. Do you expect the public to ignore the pros or follow suit???? Kids learn by watching also. Kids today don't buy the "Do as I say and not as I do" BS

Tell me again how this is "management's" fault?

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

Do you think Taylor Made or Callaway has helped speed up play??? Nope. Now golfers can hit the ball further in the woods with a 45-1/2" driver. I haven't seen golf speed up since the club makers started making easier clubs to hit. Get the picture.

Coincidence does not prove causality. I saw an awful lot of people sucking at golf when they had persimmon drivers, too. So did you.

You know what was different 30 years ago, or even 20? People weren't so full of themselves. They respected others more. They played faster because if THEY had time to spend six hours on the golf course, they realized it might be more fun to play 36, not 18, in that amount of time. They weren't entitled.

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

The Pro should be out on the 1st Tee Box reviewing the pace of play rules with every foursome.

Yeah, okay dude. Sorry, but that's just freaking preposterous.

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

I've played the TPC in Norton, MA 100 times. You know you can buy a case of beer packed in a cooler at the snack shack on the 10th hole there. So, who's fooling who about the pace of play. Management is drooling while they charge $8 per beer on the course. They want more players so they can sell more beer.

It's all about the beer! I get it now!

I give up, and you're not interested in having an actual discussion.

Originally Posted by MS256

Now I'm confused about who to blame for the idiots in front of me Sunday. After they each took about 5 or 6 strokes to reach a par three and took about 15 minutes to putt out they decided to replace all four balls and try the putts again. All while 3 groups were lined up at the tee box waiting to play the hole.

My son and I just decided to call it a day so at least the other 2 groups got to move up a slot.

Couldn't have been the beverage cart's fault because there isn't one at that course. Couldn't have been the golf pro's fault because there isn't one at that course. Couldn't have been the tee off schedule because there were only 6 groups on the course. Just turned out that all of us were playing along just fine until we all caught them on the last 3 holes.

Is it possible that it could have been the idiots themselves that were to blame?

BLAME MANAGEMENT!

[minitour]

Originally Posted by iacas

If this is all it takes, then, "no I'm not." The course pro is not 90% responsible for the pace of play.

You're still wrong.

I'm playing the iacas game today.  I'm ignoring all evidence to the contrary and just spouting off with "you're wrong" and it must be true because I say so.

[saevel25]

God i feel like i need a beer, were's that damn cart girl

[iacas]

Originally Posted by minitour

You're still wrong.

I'm playing the iacas game today.  I'm ignoring all evidence to the contrary and just spouting off with "you're wrong" and it must be true because I say so.

Uh huh.

Provide evidence. It's not being ignored - there's simply no evidence being provided that "90% of the problem is the head pro" or management or anything to the contrary.

Players are slow. Players are slow on courses without a beverage cart. They're slow when they're spaced more than 10 minutes apart. They're slow whether they're waiting or the first group out.

You and the other guy are in the minority. Provide evidence.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfer6760

Hey Iacas don't mean to pick on you. I've been around many golf courses for the past 50 years. What makes a good course is a team effort between the resident pro, management & the greens keeper. I'm sorry, but the one team member who in my opinion is useless is the resident golf pro. IMO he's supposed to manage the tee times, the first tee box & the pace of play. Instead, today resident pro's are business majors and have gotten away from managing the course as was done in the old days. IMO there's nobody watching the chicken coop anymore and the players have had a free hand at doing as they please on the course for a lot of years. Years ago the resident pro was in charge of the course. Today the resident pro is nothing more than a bean counter & hired to increase revenue for the owner.  When was the last time you met the resident pro at a public course???

I'm not happy with Arnie, Tiger, Jack & Anika for joining the bandwagon to place public blame on national TV against the player where a larger portion of the problem lies in the hands of management. Take the damm beer cart off the course. What do you expect players to do??? Ignore the flesh shaking all over while she's smiling at you holding a cold bud with your name on it???????? Most of the blood is leaving the players head by now.

I'm waiting for Glen Nager to get over the high from the US Open and start leaning on the Management teams at most courses to come up with a viable solution. If the PGA continues to televise 6 hour rounds showing every putt analyized from every possible angle while Johnny Miller flaps his gums for 5hrs straight how Tigers career is over because he missed a putt. Do you expect the public to ignore the pros or follow suit???? Kids learn by watching also. Kids today don't buy the "Do as I say and not as I do" BS

Do you think Taylor Made or Callaway has helped speed up play??? Nope. Now golfers can hit the ball further in the woods with a 45-1/2" driver. I haven't seen golf speed up since the club makers started making easier clubs to hit. Get the picture.

All courses should start by adhereing to the 10 min intervals at the 1st Tee box. If your able to hit or not. The Pro should be out on the 1st Tee Box reviewing the pace of play rules with every foursome. Explaining what is expected of them and doing his/her job. Not hiding the the air conditioned office.

I've played the TPC in Norton, MA 100 times. You know you can buy a case of beer packed in a cooler at the snack shack on the 10th hole there. So, who's fooling who about the pace of play. Management is drooling while they charge $8 per beer on the course. They want more players so they can sell more beer.

You have the most peculiar idea of how a golf course is run that I've ever seen.  You apparently haven't learned much in those 50 years which you are so proud of.  I've never, in my pathetic 40 years of being around golf courses, seen a pro playing starter unless he was subbing for the regular guy.  His job is to hire the starter.  I know that because I worked as a starter for 5 years prior to relocating here.   I was interviewed and hired by the head pro at my home course.  Once he saw that I understood the job, he left me alone.  He had too many other responsibilities to waste his time micromanaging the people he hired.  He expected them to do their jobs, and if they didn't, he had a stack of active applications about 2 inches high from which to find a replacement.

A public course like I worked and played at is expected to make money.  That requires managing it as a business, which for some reason you seem to think is wrong.  If the head pro doesn't understand that, then he's not going to be a club pro for long.  It's a nonstop balancing act between putting enough players on the course to make money, while not overloading it and diminishing the experience for the players.  As the starter, it was my job to maintain the tee sheet, and handle reservation call-ins during my shift.  Players with reservations went out on time or they didn't go out until there was another opening.  If you were late, tough luck, not my problem.  Most days our course was full from sunup until early afternoon, so shuffling tee times just wasn't in the cards. Our rangers put most of their focus on keeping the flow going on the front 9, because you can't repair a jam if you wait until it gets to the 12th hole.  On a few occasions when the ranger couldn't get cooperation, then the pro was called out to the course to read them from the book.  They either got the message or they got the boot.  That is the only interplay our pro ever had with course flow management.  His JOB was to run the business, and give golf lessons the rest of the time.

Although course policy can have an effect on pace of play, it's probably 95% player education that is the actual solution.  Once the players know what is expected and now to achieve it, then a little bit of ranger supervision is all that should be necessary.  That means that you have to start somewhere, and the TV ads are a beginning.  Nobody in his right mind thinks that it's going to suddenly turn 5 hour rounds to 4 hour rounds, but it's going to begin to get the message out that fiddling around instead of playing isn't okay.

[Ernest Jones]

I'm a little uncomfortable with all this talk of getting rid of the beer cart girl...

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I'm a little uncomfortable with all this talk of getting rid of the beer cart girl...

Well yeah, she's causing them to take 6 hours to play a round of golf, the little bitch!

[Ernest Jones]

Well yeah, she's causing them to take 6 hours to play a round of golf, the little bitch!

I like little bitches. Besides, they're the ONLY redeeming factor when play is slow. Kinda like an oasis, a skimpy dressed, flesh flashing, little bitch of an oasis with a trailer full of beer and snacks. Mmmmmm, beer, I think I'll play golf after work.

[Slice of Life]

How is this still an argument? Slow play is caused by slow players. Period. How can you even argue to the contrary? If the person in front is playing at a reasonable speed, and everyone behind follows suit, how can it go slow? It can't. How is this rocket science? I don't get it...

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

How is this still an argument? Slow play is caused by slow players. Period. How can you even argue to the contrary? If the person in front is playing at a reasonable speed, and everyone behind follows suit, how can it go slow? It can't. How is this rocket science? I don't get it...

That points at the root of the problem.  However, the intent of the program is to try and begin to get the message out to those players.  This campaign isn't going to make that happen by itself, but at least they are beginning to publicize the problem.  If a few more players start complaining to management, then maybe courses will start policing themselves.  As long as golfers see 5 hours as "normal" and don't complain, courses have no incentive to change anything.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

How is this still an argument? Slow play is caused by slow players. Period. How can you even argue to the contrary? If the person in front is playing at a reasonable speed, and everyone behind follows suit, how can it go slow? It can't. How is this rocket science? I don't get it...

Well that is kind of a "duh" statement.  The only thing is that there is more than one factor that causes players to play slow.  If a course wanted to speed up play they cannot place the burden on slow players, because I guarantee you that it will not be fixed.  All it takes is pace of play guidelines that are enforced by course management.  If you take 14 minutes per hole that is 4:12 pace, which to me is still ungodly slow.  However, it is still a lot better than the 5+ hour rounds we have heard of.  Have marshals on the course.  If your 14 minutes is up on the hole you pick up and move on, simple enough.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by trackster

Well that is kind of a "duh" statement.  The only thing is that there is more than one factor that causes players to play slow.  If a course wanted to speed up play they cannot place the burden on slow players, because I guarantee you that it will not be fixed.  All it takes is pace of play guidelines that are enforced by course management.  If you take 14 minutes per hole that is 4:12 pace, which to me is still ungodly slow.  However, it is still a lot better than the 5+ hour rounds we have heard of.  Have marshals on the course.  If your 14 minutes is up on the hole you pick up and move on, simple enough.

Is it? A lot of people don't seem to get it.

I agree, have a marshal or two driving around making sure people are playing at an acceptable pace.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Is it? A lot of people don't seem to get it.

I agree, have a marshal or two driving around making sure people are playing at an acceptable pace.

An analogy to this is like saying "criminals cause crime."  Of course this is true by definition alone.  But motives for crime are all different and abundant.  Just like reasons for slow play are abundant.  The blame can be spread across the player, course layout, course enforcement, etc..

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I like little bitches. Besides, they're the ONLY redeeming factor when play is slow. Kinda like an oasis, a skimpy dressed, flesh flashing, little bitch of an oasis with a trailer full of beer and snacks. Mmmmmm, beer, I think I'll play golf after work.

I think if you call her a little bitch, you'll end up getting snubbed by the cart girl, No beer for you! :p

Originally Posted by trackster

Well that is kind of a "duh" statement.  The only thing is that there is more than one factor that causes players to play slow.  If a course wanted to speed up play they cannot place the burden on slow players, because I guarantee you that it will not be fixed.  All it takes is pace of play guidelines that are enforced by course management.  If you take 14 minutes per hole that is 4:12 pace, which to me is still ungodly slow.  However, it is still a lot better than the 5+ hour rounds we have heard of.  Have marshals on the course.  If your 14 minutes is up on the hole you pick up and move on, simple enough.

Yea, a lot of people can't get past the "Duh" statements can't they. Mostly i think they just don't want to be blamed for slow play themselves, so they rather point the finger at management. Of course it can't be our fault, can't it :p

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by saevel25

I think if you call her a little bitch, you'll end up getting snubbed by the cart girl, No beer for you! :p

You're underestimating my animal magnetism and the power of my department store cologne.