"Hey! While we're young!" - USGA Pace of Play

[colin007]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

In a 4 hour round, I'm standing around waiting a lot. Add 30 minutes, and I'm spending almost half my time standing around. Damn right it isn't stress free. People are lazy, inconsiderate a-holes, and you're part of the problem if you don't give a rats ass.

i agree.  ill play a round that seems interminably long, waiting on every hole, wondering why its taking so long.  at the end of the round i look at my watch and it took 4 hours...4 hours is a long time...

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by colin007

i agree.  ill play a round that seems interminably long, waiting on every hole, wondering why its taking so long.  at the end of the round i look at my watch and it took 4 hours...4 hours is a long time...

If there's nobody on the course, me and the guy I usually golf with can finish in 2 and a half hours. Four hours IS a long time.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by colin007

i agree.  ill play a round that seems interminably long, waiting on every hole, wondering why its taking so long.  at the end of the round i look at my watch and it took 4 hours...4 hours is a long time...

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

If there's nobody on the course, me and the guy I usually golf with can finish in 2 and a half hours. Four hours IS a long time.

Yep, I routinely play a solo 9 in an hour walking.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Yep, I routinely play a solo 9 in an hour walking.

You figure, even on a 6500 yard course, at a 3 mph walking pace, that's 1.23 hours walking. Now, for each stroke, let's say grabbing the club, lining up the shot/putt, taking the shot, and tracking the ball takes 30 seconds...even if you shoot 100, there's an extra .25 hours. That makes it a total of 1.48 hours, or slightly less than an hour and a half. And that's walking slow, and taking your sweet ass time hitting the ball. Now, if you shoot 100, you probably hit a few in questionable areas, so even if you spend a half an hour looking for balls, you still finish 9 in under 2 hours.

And that is a lot longer of a course than most people play.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

You figure, even on a 6500 yard course, at a 3 mph walking pace, that's 1.23 hours walking. Now, for each stroke, let's say grabbing the club, lining up the shot/putt, taking the shot, and tracking the ball takes 30 seconds...even if you shoot 100, there's an extra .25 hours. That makes it a total of 1.48 hours, or slightly less than an hour and a half. And that's walking slow, and taking your sweet ass time hitting the ball. Now, if you shoot 100, you probably hit a few in questionable areas, so even if you spend a half an hour looking for balls, you still finish 9 in under 2 hours.

And that is a lot longer of a course than most people play.

You left out 8 minutes to bang the beer cart girl.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

You left out 8 minutes to bang the beer cart girl.

You're giving a lot of people here a lot of credit. Or does that include the 7 and a half minutes of convincing?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Stretch

No one actually read the pace of play manual, did they? Because why bother with facts when there's so many free opinions just lying around the place.

It's not hopeless. It's not an inevitable byproduct of our (insert political/cultural gripe here) society. Pace of play can be managed and, more than that, can be used as key competitive differentiator by courses that are willing to make the necessary effort.

RTFM!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8wtmrqnrgx8sao/Pace_of_Play.pdf

Oh, snap!  I thought that tee box looked eerily familiar.  Sure enough, that's (kinda) my home course!  That's what I play most of my rounds not booked on golfnow.

Now I will have to read it and corroborate or dispute any claims.

[colin007]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Oh, snap!  I thought that tee box looked eerily familiar.  Sure enough, that's (kinda) my home course!  That's what I play most of my rounds not booked on golfnow.

Now I will have to read it and corroborate or dispute any claims.

do a review!  that would be cool, to do an all encompassing review of the course including the pace of play standards.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Yep.  And McDivot's foursome is going to be the one holding everything up, because he's in denial that there is a problem.

No, it isn't.  The player must take ownership or no policy is going to work.  He must understand that it's his actions which determine the pace or flow of the course, and he must be given the skills to manage his play so as not to be the problem (not golf skills, but pace of play skills).  The course is responsible for setting the policy, educating the players, and then enforcing the policy.  The player is responsible for taking ownership of the course policy and for taking to heart the skills which will help him play at an acceptable pace.   If the player understands this, then enforcement by the course is unnecessary.

And being the slow group on a busy day, it's not an option to let other groups through.  That takes time in itself, and there is always another group on the heels of the one you just let through.  Are you going to sit there while group after group plays through?  Just learn how to quit fiddling around when you should be playing and you may not be the fastest group out there, but you won't be the slowest one either.  Be at your ball and ready to play when it's your turn, then clear the area promptly so that the group behind you can hit.  If everyone just made a point of doing what they can to meet that goal, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Hopefully McDivot will some day wake up to the fact that he isn't the only player on the golf course.

Sorry, but you are wrong about courses not being responsible for managing their golf course.

Not every person is aware of the backlog they are creating....not everyone knows all the "rules" of golf etiquette. It is solely the responsibility of the golf course to ensure that their course is moving at an acceptable pace. Period. If a course is not doing that, I would be complaining to management.

I agree, if everyone were schooled on the rules of golf, courses would play a lot quicker...unfortunately, there are far too many golfers out there.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Sorry, but you are wrong about courses not being responsible for managing their golf course.

Not every person is aware of the backlog they are creating....not everyone knows all the "rules" of golf etiquette. It is solely the responsibility of the golf course to ensure that their course is moving at an acceptable pace. Period. If a course is not doing that, I would be complaining to management.

I agree, if everyone were schooled on the rules of golf, courses would play a lot quicker...unfortunately, there are far too many golfers out there.

This is very true.  When I first started the only "guide" I had was my friend who had only been golfing for maybe a month before I did.  I'm pretty sure that I was playing fast,but if I wasn't I probably wouldn't have known it.

I'll always remember the time we were behind a group of 4 walkers.  We had caught them by the 4th hole, we had some A-hole in a cart come up and ask if the guys in front of us were playing as a 5-some.  I told him there was only 4 (My course is flat you could clearly count them from where we were standing).  He got mad and said "I'm not sure, I'm going to call the ranger on them."  To this day me and my friend always joke about calling the ranger on someone.  On the 5th hole the 4-some let us play through and were very nice people.  On the tenth hole the A-hole in the cart asked if him and his wife could play through.  We were playing even if not faster than him and his wife but I didn't want that ranger called on me, so we let him through.  We then got to enjoy 9 holes of waiting on this guy for every shot.

Most of the people that play slow don't know that they are causing slow play.  The course needs to take some responsibility in awareness.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Oh, snap!  I thought that tee box looked eerily familiar.  Sure enough, that's (kinda) my home course!  That's what I play most of my rounds not booked on golfnow.

Now I will have to read it and corroborate or dispute any claims.

Yes, review please! Ancil used to be in my rotation but the glacial pace drove me away.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Yep.  And McDivot's foursome is going to be the one holding everything up, because he's in denial that there is a problem.

No, it isn't.  The player must take ownership or no policy is going to work.  He must understand that it's his actions which determine the pace or flow of the course, and he must be given the skills to manage his play so as not to be the problem (not golf skills, but pace of play skills).  The course is responsible for setting the policy, educating the players, and then enforcing the policy.  The player is responsible for taking ownership of the course policy and for taking to heart the skills which will help him play at an acceptable pace.   If the player understands this, then enforcement by the course is unnecessary.

And being the slow group on a busy day, it's not an option to let other groups through.  That takes time in itself, and there is always another group on the heels of the one you just let through.  Are you going to sit there while group after group plays through?  Just learn how to quit fiddling around when you should be playing and you may not be the fastest group out there, but you won't be the slowest one either.  Be at your ball and ready to play when it's your turn, then clear the area promptly so that the group behind you can hit.  If everyone just made a point of doing what they can to meet that goal, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Hopefully McDivot will some day wake up to the fact that he isn't the only player on the golf course.

Sorry, but you are wrong about courses not being responsible for managing their golf course.

Not every person is aware of the backlog they are creating....not everyone knows all the "rules" of golf etiquette. It is solely the responsibility of the golf course to ensure that their course is moving at an acceptable pace. Period. If a course is not doing that, I would be complaining to management.

I agree, if everyone were schooled on the rules of golf, courses would play a lot quicker...unfortunately, there are far too many golfers out there.

Did you actually read my entire post?  Responsibility falls on both.  I thought that I stated that quite clearly.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Did you actually read my entire post?  Responsibility falls on both.  I thought that I stated that quite clearly.

No, you said that the player needs to take responsibility for their speed, which is 100% correct, but then you said that management of pace of play rests on the player and the course, which is 100% wrong.

You could have a course filled with players all playing at different paces. Some are 3.5 hour pace, some 4.5, some 5 hours...etc. It is up to the management to control their golf course to allow a smooth transition from hole to hole. That responsibility is not on each individual player.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Did you actually read my entire post?  Responsibility falls on both.  I thought that I stated that quite clearly.

No, you said that the player needs to take responsibility for their speed, which is 100% correct, but then you said that management of pace of play rests on the player and the course, which is 100% wrong.

I'm talking about managing the pace of play process .  The "course" isn't playing ready golf.  The "course" isn't leaving the green promptly after putting out.  The "course" isn't preparing to play while the guy's before you are hitting.  These, and a dozen other little things are what constitute each individual's management of pace of play.  Once the "how to" is in the hands of the player it is definitely his responsibility to make proper use of it.

What you are talking about is enforcement, and that is obviously a function of the course.  But, and this is a big key, once the regular players have been educated in how to keep a good pace, and the course has a solid policy briefing to every group before they hit their first shots, it takes surprisingly little time before the need for actual enforcement becomes almost nonexistent.  All the ranger/marshal/course assistant has to do is just make the rounds and maintain visibility and the players will do a generally good job of policing themselves.  I've played a few courses where I see the ranger every couple of holes, yet never see him have to do more than wave a greeting as he passes, never see him counseling anyone, and the pace is good all the way around the course.

Quote:

You could have a course filled with players all playing at different paces. Some are 3.5 hour pace, some 4.5, some 5 hours...etc. It is up to the management to control their golf course to allow a smooth transition from hole to hole. That responsibility is not on each individual player.

The whole point of a pace play policy is that you eliminate those problem groups.  When the ranger does have a group like that, he approaches, them tells them that the policy which they were told about before they started is fixed and they are expected to keep pace.  Preferably, he gives them one warning, then backs off and watches them to see if they take it to heart.  If not, he quickly moves in and tells them to pick up and skip ahead until they are just one shot behind the group in front of them.  The downside of this is that now he has to go back down the line and tell ask the following groups to close the gap thus created, which was never their fault in the first place.  One group of players has now impacted the pleasant rounds of maybe 3 or 4 more groups.  This is why the ranger has to be alert, empowered, and quick to act so that the impact of such incidents on innocent players is minimized.  Once a course gets a reputation for zero tolerance, these incidents become rare.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by colin007

i agree.  ill play a round that seems interminably long, waiting on every hole, wondering why its taking so long.  at the end of the round i look at my watch and it took 4 hours...4 hours is a long time...

It depends on the course, how crowded it is and how many are in your group. In general on a public course 4 hours is not a long time to play 18 holes. It's a good goal which unfortunately most public tracks fail to achieve.

[Chunky]

Pace of play is a threefold problem: 1)The course itself  2)Slow players 3) USGA rules don't make play fast.

First of all imagine a course that is old with greens that are small and curvey, bunkers around them with different types of sand, some with not enough sand, greens that roll at three different speeds  and change daily, uneven watering, 16 holes that you can bounce off the green into OB or 8inch high grass. Blind shots on fairways that bounce toward hazards with tall grass. Sure you can play it in 3.5 hours and I have walking it, but it ain't going to happen when you start putting just a few foursomes in front of you, especially when a public course can't resist the temptation to  pile them on as fast as they can.

Next slow players, these idiots have no concept of time or what they should be doing to speed up. My belief is a Marshall should stand over the group and say stuff. Like it's your turn do it and why didn't you check out the putt instead of standing around waiting and so on.

USGA rules don't encourage fast play, you want add two strokes to your score or would you rather have a chance of making par, that means you need to find your ball! More than half of golfers don't go back to the tee for a white OB stake, so make it one stroke and call it a hazard, too many courses use white stakes to try and control speed of play, but it doesn't work.

So it isn't just the golfers it's the whole system.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Chunky

Pace of play is a threefold problem: 1)The course itself  2)Slow players 3) USGA rules don't make play fast.

USGA rules don't encourage fast play, you want add two strokes to your score or would you rather have a chance of making par, that means you need to find your ball! More than half of golfers don't go back to the tee for a white OB stake, so make it one stroke and call it a hazard, too many courses use white stakes to try and control speed of play, but it doesn't work.

So it isn't just the golfers it's the whole system.

Just repeating incorrect things which have already been said doesn't make them any more true.  It doesn't matter how many play OB correctly or not, those things don't cause slow play, because players don't play that rule correctly on a crowded course unless it's a competition.  Thinking that it slows play is still a myth.  My four ball plays in four hours or less while still observing all of the rules (assuming that we are being held up by players who aren't playing by the rules ).  The best rule to know is Rule 27-2 - Provisional Ball.  That will save you time AND  still let you play by the rules.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It doesn't matter how many play OB correctly or not, those things don't cause slow play, because players don't play that rule correctly on a crowded course unless it's a competition.  Thinking that it slows play is still a myth.

Exactly.  To further this point ...  I played in a few tournaments this year where I did unexpectedly lose a ball after not having hit a provisional and did have to drive back to hit again.  In both cases (and one even happened to be on the 17th hole - and that was the second one of that day!!) we were still able to catch back up to the group in front of us, so technically, it didn't slow anybody down AT ALL.

All you have to have is knowledge of the rules, etiquette, and common sense.  While I'm driving back to re-hit, my partners are playing on.  Once I'm ready to hit, they stop for a sec, let me hit, then continue to play on while I'm driving back up.  By the time I get there, they're all done and ready for me to finish.  As opposed to say waiting for me while doing nothing because I'm away.  That would slow things down quite a bit, but its not the rule slowing things down, its the players not understanding the right way to apply it.

I still wouldn't advocate doing this during casual rounds.  If you lose one unexpectedly, just drop, add two and move on, but still, it is totally a myth that the rules are a cause of slow play.