Weighty proposal for rewrite of the Rules

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I completely agree with Erik that there is no reason not to simply apply stroke play penalties for match play situations as opposed to the separate penalty structure for match play.

I disagree.  Since match play came first in the chronology of the game, to make such a change would be totally discarding the purest form of golf.  If you want to simplify the game, forget about stroke play just play match play.  You immediately eliminate 90% of the complexity of sorting through the rules.  Don't know a procedure?  Ask your opponent, come to an agreeable decision between you as best you know how, then play on.  It doesn't even matter that you made a decision which is contrary to the rules as long you didn't agree to ignore the rule. What can be simpler?  Once the hole is finished and you have played from the next tee, that previous hole is history.  Its conclusion can never again be changed unless a claim has been lodged prior to the next tee shot.  Makes no difference if the camera caught some fractional movement of the ball in high def.  End of discussion.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you want to simplify the game, forget about stroke play just play match play.

You know that wouldn't really work in the world in which we live today. No majors have been conducted at match play for decades, let alone regular PGA Tour events, etc. Golfers, for better or worse, like to know what they shot, and match play matches don't work very well for establishing a handicap (at best you're estimating a lot of "most likely" scores).

Anyway, kind of a tangential topic, really.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you want to simplify the game, forget about stroke play just play match play.

You know that wouldn't really work in the world in which we live today. No majors have been conducted at match play for decades, let alone regular PGA Tour events, etc. Golfers, for better or worse, like to know what they shot, and match play matches don't work very well for establishing a handicap (at best you're estimating a lot of "most likely" scores).

Anyway, kind of a tangential topic, really.

I realize that it wasn't a workable proposal for all play.  It was simply to support my feeling that it would be wrong to change the most basic form of the game just to satisfy someone who is basically too lazy or disinterested to learn the differences.  Besides, it's not that hard to sort out.  Most 2 stroke penalties in stroke play are loss of hole in match play.  Learn one and you have learned most of the the other.  Or just focus on the few exceptions to that relationship.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Don't know a procedure?  Ask your opponent, come to an agreeable decision between you as best you know how, then play on.  It doesn't even matter that you made a decision which is contrary to the rules as long you didn't agree to ignore the rule. What can be simpler?  Once the hole is finished and you have played from the next tee, that previous hole is history.  Its conclusion can never again be changed unless a claim has been lodged prior to the next tee shot.  Makes no difference if the camera caught some fractional movement of the ball in high def.  End of discussion.

Obviously Erik makes some valid rebuttals (re Match play not being the main form of tournament golf), but I do think that quite a bit of competition (aka friendly wagers) are done exactly like this- the competitors agree upon a solution and move on, BUT what happens when they KNOW the rule or procedure and mutually decide on a different solution?

i.e. "A" hits his tee ball into light rough and expects to find it but doesn't- his competitor, "B" (in the Match Play Club Championship) tells him he can just drop one and be lying 3.  Both players KNOW he is suppose to go back to the tee, but they have another group behind them, so "A" drops a ball and plays on.  "B" wins the match and between matches, tells his next opponent, "C" that he believes in good sportsmanship and gives the example of how he allowed "A" to drop the ball instead of going back to the tee.  "C" reports this to the Committee.  How should the Committee rule?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Don't know a procedure?  Ask your opponent, come to an agreeable decision between you as best you know how, then play on.  It doesn't even matter that you made a decision which is contrary to the rules as long you didn't agree to ignore the rule. What can be simpler?  Once the hole is finished and you have played from the next tee, that previous hole is history.  Its conclusion can never again be changed unless a claim has been lodged prior to the next tee shot.  Makes no difference if the camera caught some fractional movement of the ball in high def.  End of discussion.

Obviously Erik makes some valid rebuttals (re Match play not being the main form of tournament golf), but I do think that quite a bit of competition (aka friendly wagers) are done exactly like this- the competitors agree upon a solution and move on, BUT what happens when they KNOW the rule or procedure and mutually decide on a different solution?

i.e. "A" hits his tee ball into light rough and expects to find it but doesn't- his competitor, "B" (in the Match Play Club Championship) tells him he can just drop one and be lying 3.  Both players KNOW he is suppose to go back to the tee, but they have another group behind them, so "A" drops a ball and plays on.  "B" wins the match and between matches, tells his next opponent, "C" that he believes in good sportsmanship and gives the example of how he allowed "A" to drop the ball instead of going back to the tee.  "C" reports this to the Committee.  How should the Committee rule?

You don't postulate whether or not the results of the match have been posted.  If not, then both players are disqualified.  If the results have been posted, then it's a bit stickier, but I feel that the committee would still be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification on the concerned parties.  Agreement to waive a rule is a grievous offense and contrary to the very spirit of the game, and as such the statute of limitations should be extended.

[MEfree]

Don't you see a contradiction between

Originally Posted by Fourputt

...Don't know a procedure?  Ask your opponent, come to an agreeable decision between you as best you know how, then play on.  It doesn't even matter that you made a decision which is contrary to the rules as long you didn't agree to ignore the rule. What can be simpler?  Once the hole is finished and you have played from the next tee, that previous hole is history.  Its conclusion can never again be changed unless a claim has been lodged prior to the next tee shot.  Makes no difference if the camera caught some fractional movement of the ball in high def.  End of discussion.

and

Originally Posted by Fourputt

...I feel that the committee would still be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification on the concerned parties.  Agreement to waive a rule is a grievous offense and contrary to the very spirit of the game, and as such the statute of limitations should be extended.

Basically you are saying it is ok not to follow the rules in ignorance, but not for the sake of expediency or good sportsmanship.  Why reward ignorance but not expediency or good sportsmanship?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Don't you see a contradiction between

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

...Don't know a procedure?  Ask your opponent, come to an agreeable decision between you as best you know how, then play on.  It doesn't even matter that you made a decision which is contrary to the rules as long you didn't agree to ignore the rule. What can be simpler?  Once the hole is finished and you have played from the next tee, that previous hole is history.  Its conclusion can never again be changed unless a claim has been lodged prior to the next tee shot.  Makes no difference if the camera caught some fractional movement of the ball in high def.  End of discussion.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

...I feel that the committee would still be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification on the concerned parties.  Agreement to waive a rule is a grievous offense and contrary to the very spirit of the game, and as such the statute of limitations should be extended.

Basically you are saying it is ok not to follow the rules in ignorance, but not for the sake of expediency or good sportsmanship.  Why reward ignorance but not expediency or good sportsmanship?

Did I say it was okay?  No, I didn't.  Nothing in what I said made it okay - I simply said that it is acceptable under the rules of match play when both players are uncertain of a rule (and either one is allowed to lodge a claim in such a case too).

While I don't condone it, ignorance simply isn't sufficient reason for disqualification in and of itself.  However, deliberate and premeditated agreement to disregard a rule is ample grounds for DQ.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Obviously Erik makes some valid rebuttals (re Match play not being the main form of tournament golf), but I do think that quite a bit of competition (aka friendly wagers) are done exactly like this- the competitors agree upon a solution and move on, BUT what happens when they KNOW the rule or procedure and mutually decide on a different solution?

i.e. "A" hits his tee ball into light rough and expects to find it but doesn't- his competitor, "B" (in the Match Play Club Championship) tells him he can just drop one and be lying 3.  Both players KNOW he is suppose to go back to the tee, but they have another group behind them, so "A" drops a ball and plays on.  "B" wins the match and between matches, tells his next opponent, "C" that he believes in good sportsmanship and gives the example of how he allowed "A" to drop the ball instead of going back to the tee.  "C" reports this to the Committee.  How should the Committee rule?

The Committee must DQ them both under 1-3.

1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules

Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.
Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-3 : Match play — Disqualification of both Sides ; Stroke play — Disqualification of Competitors concerned.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Both players KNOW he is suppose to go back to the tee, but they have another group behind them,

Something that's confused me previously, in the UK in this situation you'd call the group behind through as you trek back to the tee, yet I never see it mentioned on these boards.

Is it something that local rules prohibit in the US (can't believe it is)? Something that macho pride says you don't do (can believe this, happens plenty in the UK) or it does happen and it just never gets mentioned here?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Is it something that local rules prohibit in the US (can't believe it is)? Something that macho pride says you don't do (can believe this, happens plenty in the UK) or it does happen and it just never gets mentioned here?

It's supposed to happen yes. Some people have an irrational fear of letting a group through as if the committee cares if you finish in the same order in which you started.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Something that's confused me previously, in the UK in this situation you'd call the group behind through as you trek back to the tee, yet I never see it mentioned on these boards.

Is it something that local rules prohibit in the US (can't believe it is)? Something that macho pride says you don't do (can believe this, happens plenty in the UK) or it does happen and it just never gets mentioned here?

Depends on the course and the mentality of the players involved.  I would say that generally, you are more likely to see a single or twosome play through a foursome, but occasionally you will see a foursome play through a foursome.

It is pretty rare to see anyone trek back to the tee over here, unless it is a formal stroke play tournament, so most of the playing through happens as a result of general speed of play differences, not an issue on a single hole.

I will be playing in a club match play tournament soon and I would say that at least half of my potential opponents would encourage me to just drop a ball as opposed to going back to the tee if I had unexpectedly lost a ball without hitting a provisional- the % might be a lower if we were riding and nobody was behind us, but much higher if we were walking with a group behind.  If both player's agreed to this, I couldn't  imagine the "Committee" (aka the paid course professionals/managers) to disqualify anyone.  If a third party like C brought this to their attention, they certainly wouldn't win any popularity contests anytime soon even if their motive was to protect "the integrity of the game"

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I will be playing in a club match play tournament soon and I would say that at least half of my potential opponents would encourage me to just drop a ball as opposed to going back to the tee if I had unexpectedly lost a ball without hitting a provisional- the % might be a lower if we were riding and nobody was behind us, but much higher if we were walking with a group behind.  If both player's agreed to this, I couldn't  imagine the "Committee" (aka the paid course professionals/managers) to disqualify anyone.  If a third party like C brought this to their attention, they certainly wouldn't win any popularity contests anytime soon even if their motive was to protect "the integrity of the game"

Doing this would make both players subject to DQ.

If you are playing in a tournament why no play to the rules?

That is nothing to do with the integrity of the game it is to do with the integrity of the players or more specifically the integrity of other club members/tournament entrants.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Something that's confused me previously, in the UK in this situation you'd call the group behind through as you trek back to the tee, yet I never see it mentioned on these boards.

Is it something that local rules prohibit in the US (can't believe it is)? Something that macho pride says you don't do (can believe this, happens plenty in the UK) or it does happen and it just never gets mentioned here?

In the UK you would have played a provisional if there was any chance at all that you wouldn't find your ball.

That's what the rules say all over the world.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

In the UK you would have played a provisional if there was any chance at all that you wouldn't find your ball.

That's what the rules say all over the world.

Ideally yes, but we have plenty of occasions where a crow will take a ball from the fairway (or we assume that is the case) but without proof in a comp. then we need to return to the tee to reload. If you know its happened ie seen the crow take the ball then we're dropping as close to where the ball was as possible.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I will be playing in a club match play tournament soon and I would say that at least half of my potential opponents would encourage me to just drop a ball as opposed to going back to the tee if I had unexpectedly lost a ball without hitting a provisional- the % might be a lower if we were riding and nobody was behind us, but much higher if we were walking with a group behind.  If both player's agreed to this, I couldn't  imagine the "Committee" (aka the paid course professionals/managers) to disqualify anyone.  If a third party like C brought this to their attention, they certainly wouldn't win any popularity contests anytime soon even if their motive was to protect "the integrity of the game"

There is so much wrong in this my head hurts. Tournament, no rules, more than two players(?), Committee not interested in correct results?

What other rules would be encouraged by your opponent to be broken? Do you tee on 150 yard marker? If you do not really want to go back to tee why do you not concede the hole and move on. At least you would admit you screwed up to lose a ball and all would be by the book.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by luu5

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I will be playing in a club match play tournament soon and I would say that at least half of my potential opponents would encourage me to just drop a ball as opposed to going back to the tee if I had unexpectedly lost a ball without hitting a provisional- the % might be a lower if we were riding and nobody was behind us, but much higher if we were walking with a group behind.  If both player's agreed to this, I couldn't  imagine the "Committee" (aka the paid course professionals/managers) to disqualify anyone.  If a third party like C brought this to their attention, they certainly wouldn't win any popularity contests anytime soon even if their motive was to protect "the integrity of the game"

There is so much wrong in this my head hurts. Tournament, no rules, more than two players(?), Committee not interested in correct results?

What other rules would be encouraged by your opponent to be broken? Do you tee on 150 yard marker? If you do not really want to go back to tee why do you not concede the hole and move on. At least you would admit you screwed up to lose a ball and all would be by the book.

I have to agree with this.  Uneven management of a tournament or league would be distasteful at best, and unbearable if unresolved.  No way I could participate in such a travesty.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I will be playing in a club match play tournament soon and I would say that at least half of my potential opponents would encourage me to just drop a ball as opposed to going back to the tee if I had unexpectedly lost a ball without hitting a provisional- the % might be a lower if we were riding and nobody was behind us, but much higher if we were walking with a group behind.  If both player's agreed to this, I couldn't  imagine the "Committee" (aka the paid course professionals/managers) to disqualify anyone.  If a third party like C brought this to their attention, they certainly wouldn't win any popularity contests anytime soon even if their motive was to protect "the integrity of the game"

When you say "club" match play tournament......you mean an actual, USGA licensed club?  One that uses the USGA handicapping system?

If so, they're at serious risk of losing their USGA license.  A quick note to the USGA would certainly result in an audit of their handicapping policies and procedures.  The audit checklist is comprised of 15 questions, of which number 14 asks the following:

-   Does your club insist that the principles of The Rules of Golf be followed? Please attach examples of how this is accomplished at your club.

If the senior (paid) club management would put their USGA club license at risk because they willingly conducted a tournament and did not ensure that the rules of golf were followed to the best of their abilities, they should be doing something else for a living!

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

When you say "club" match play tournament......you mean an actual, USGA licensed club?  One that uses the USGA handicapping system?

If so, they're at serious risk of losing their USGA license.  A quick note to the USGA would certainly result in an audit of their handicapping policies and procedures.  The audit checklist is comprised of 15 questions, of which number 14 asks the following:

-   Does your club insist that the principles of The Rules of Golf be followed? Please attach examples of how this is accomplished at your club.

If the senior (paid) club management would put their USGA club license at risk because they willingly conducted a tournament and did not ensure that the rules of golf were followed to the best of their abilities, they should be doing something else for a living!

I am not saying that they would go out of their way to encourage the rules to be broken at this club, just that my opinion is that it is UNLIKELY that they would disqualify BOTH competitors for an agreed upon rules breach if neither competitor filed a complaint.  (For the record, this is NOT the same club that doesn't properly convert our USGA indexes into League handicaps from different tees...that club doens't have a match play event but would definitely NOT disqualify the competitors involved).  Pace of play is important at both courses and I just don't see them penalizing two match play competitors who mutually agree to bend the rules to try to speed things up.