PGA and Preferred Lies (fluffing)

[Chris223]

... and why would they want to intentionally hit their ball into the stands?

[iacas]

... and why would they want to intentionally hit their ball into the stands?

Because it's the smart play oftentimes.

Kyle Stanley should have blown his second shot long and right on 18 at Torrey Pines a few years ago.

[saevel25]

I'm not a big fan of drops zones. I say you just follow the drop rules, if you can't drop then drop were you last hit the ball. Its not that hard.

As for preferred lies, i have no problem with them. Its used for the whole field, so who cares. Its not like its an unfair advantage. If we are using this to discredit how good professional golfers are, that is a poor metric.

[bplewis24]

Just wanted to chime in to say that I'm not sure how I feel about this topic.  I've heard and understand both sides.  Normally I'd be inclined to side with "purists" who I'm guessing fall on the "this is a travesty" side of the debate.  But I don't see the outrage on this unless it's abused.  To the people who don't like this rule, would you do away with it altogether or are you suggesting it's implemented too often, and would like to see it reigned in somewhat?

[Golfingdad]

I actually like it.**

A)  I don't want somebody losing a tournament because of a clump of mud at the wrong time.

B)  It brings a little extra strategy into play because usually (if not every time) this rule is implemented, it only applies to balls in the short grass.  Everybody wants the chance to get their hands on the ball so I imagine that people are extra cautious to get the ball in the fairway where sometimes in dry weather they'd just play bomb and gouge.

**Of course, if it was abused to the point that they're using it in situations where it's not really necessary, then I'd think it's silly.

[Fourputt]

As for preferred lies, i have no problem with them. Its used for the whole field, so who cares. Its not like its an unfair advantage. If we are using this to discredit how good professional golfers are, that is a poor metric.

Whoever said that?  Not anyone I see here.  I'm discrediting the PGA Tour tournament committees which invoke the rule in situations where the USGA or R&A; wouldn't even discuss it.  The comment about Player expertise was that if they are that good they should be able to handle playing the ball with a little dirt on it.  If I can do it, why not them?  My Men's Club committee uses only when we have a tournament within a week of the fairways being aerated, which is about once every 3 or 4 years.  Aside from those rare circumstances and our one scramble each year, we play the ball down all the time.

Mud on the ball is a part of the game, just like good and bad bounces.  Deal with it.

[saevel25]

there is no dealing with a mud ball, no one can tell what a mud ball will do, it's mutually exclusive to player ability.

[Fourputt]

there is no dealing with a mud ball, no one can tell what a mud ball will do, it's mutually exclusive to player ability.

So what?  Its still the same for everyone.  I've played dozens of mud balls over the years, and 90% of the time the dirt has no effect on the shot.

There's no dealing with bad bounces either.  Do want to regulate them out of the game too?  Ooh darn - that bad kick put me in the deep rough.  I should get to drop it back in the fairway.  Then I get to clean and place it because we are playing lift, clean and cheat.  Sheesh... just play golf and quit whining.

[saevel25]

Here's the thing, we are not trying to make a living off of golf. I think you'd have a different opinion if a mud ball cost you a lot of money. Cause, now your being punished for hitting the ball in the fairway? Seriously. I have no problem with lift clean and place for pro's under certain conditions. PGA tour can do what they want, why do you care.

[Fourputt]

Here's the thing, we are not trying to make a living off of golf. I think you'd have a different opinion if a mud ball cost you a lot of money. Cause, now your being punished for hitting the ball in the fairway? Seriously. I have no problem with lift clean and place for pro's under certain conditions. PGA tour can do what they want, why do you care.

They are in the business of entertainment.  They are there to entertain the fans.  I'm a fan.  I'm not particularly entertained by pros playing from fluffed lies.  They play week in and week out on the best conditioned, best prepared courses in the world, then they fluff any possible randomness out of the game as well.  If they are so damned good, let them play by the same rules I play by week in and week out.  Sorry, but you will never convince me that there is any reason to coddle professional golfers any more than they already are by just being on Tour.

[Strandly]

Here's the thing, we are not trying to make a living off of golf. I think you'd have a different opinion if a mud ball cost you a lot of money. Cause, now your being punished for hitting the ball in the fairway? Seriously. I have no problem with lift clean and place for pro's under certain conditions. PGA tour can do what they want, why do you care.

What on earth does that have to do with anything?  People tune in for the skill, not for the prize purse.  Anyway, I agree with Fouprputt 100% on this, play under everyday conditions or don't play at all.

[saevel25]

What on earth does that have to do with anything?  People tune in for the skill, not for the prize purse.  Anyway, I agree with Fouprputt 100% on this, play under everyday conditions or don't play at all.

They are not in the business to entertain. Just because we watch them play, and it drives their money purses, it doesn't mean it drives the players style or choices of golf shots. Our watching is circumstantial to anything they do. Given if we stop watching there would be no tour. NASCAR drivers don't crash on purpose because people enjoy the suspense and carnage of the crash. I don't sit back and think, ooh mud ball exciting. We can't even tell its a mud ball, so why does it matter.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strandly

What on earth does that have to do with anything?  People tune in for the skill, not for the prize purse.  Anyway, I agree with Fouprputt 100% on this, play under everyday conditions or don't play at all.

They are not in the business to entertain. Just because we watch them play, and it drives their money purses, it doesn't mean it drives the players style or choices of golf shots. Our watching is circumstantial to anything they do. Given if we stop watching there would be no tour. NASCAR drivers don't crash on purpose because people enjoy the suspense and carnage of the crash. I don't sit back and think, ooh mud ball exciting. We can't even tell its a mud ball, so why does it matter.

You just don't get it do you?  If you aren't being entertained, then why are you watching?  And if all of us weren't being entertained by watching, the PGA Tour would be bankrupt in a month.  Of course they are in the business of entertainment.  All professional sports are in the business of entertainment.  There is no other reason for their existence.

Besides, I never said that I was living for a mud ball.  I said that they are part of the game and should be left as part of the game, just like any other result of weather.  Weather and playing conditions are part of the adjustments that one has to make during play, and it's coddling to legislate any of the normal difficulties out of the game just so that some pampered elites can shoot a couple more strokes under par.

[MEfree]

So what?  Its still the same for everyone.  I've played dozens of mud balls over the years, and 90% of the time the dirt has no effect on the shot.

There's no dealing with bad bounces either.  Do want to regulate them out of the game too?  Ooh darn - that bad kick put me in the deep rough.  I should get to drop it back in the fairway.  Then I get to clean and place it because we are playing lift, clean and cheat.  Sheesh... just play golf and quit whining.

I don't feel strongly one way other the other about lift, clean and place but will point out that bad bounces can be increased or decreased by course design and the luck with mud balls can be eliminated with lift, clean and place.  Most players prefer fair courses that have less random bounces than mini golf, so I imagine that some players do like to see the luck factor of mud balls regulated out of the game the same way some players feel that you should not have to play from a divot on the fairway.  I know you don't agree, but others are entitled to their opinions as well.

You just don't get it do you?  If you aren't being entertained, then why are you watching?  And if all of us weren't being entertained by watching, the PGA Tour would be bankrupt in a month.  Of course they are in the business of entertainment.  All professional sports are in the business of entertainment.  There is no other reason for their existence.

I think it is you who missed Saevel's point- he didn't say that we aren't entertained.  What he said is that the pros first concern is winning $ and golf tournaments and that the entertainment provided to us is a byproduct of their goal to play as well as they can.  Yes, some pros go out of their way to sign autographs and do interviews, but they don't decide how to play a shot in competition based on what they think will entertain the viewers the most.  Phil might be the exception.

[saevel25]

I think it is you who missed Saevel's point- he didn't say that we aren't entertained.  What he said is that the pros first concern is winning $ and golf tournaments and that the entertainment provided to us is a byproduct of their goal to play as well as they can.  Yes, some pros go out of their way to sign autographs and do interviews, but they don't decide how to play a shot in competition based on what they think will entertain the viewers the most.  Phil might be the exception.

Exactly. Its the same with all sports. We want to watch competition, we like the drama of an underdog. That is just all a by product of sports. Its just the PGA Tour, NLF, NBA, MLB, they have found a way to harness this for profit. Some players enjoy the spot lite. Look at Chad Johnson in football. People loved to see what antics he did after a touch down. But it didn't effect his performance playing the game. He was giving his 100% to win the game. He just liked to live in the spot light a bit more. Same with golf, these players don't stand over a shot and say, "Oooh will this get the crowed to get excited.' The players don't care about our excitement. They care about winning. The people understand that as well. There's a reason why people follow Tiger, Phil, Rory. They win, and they are in contention. So there is naturally more energy and excitement. The players don't create it on purpose, the fans seek it out on their own.

Lets say Tiger is 2 back, and surging. Do you think the people would be excited to see his ball come up 10 yards short into some water because of a mud ball, or do you want him to hit a perfect shot to inside 10' and drain a putt. Which is more exciting.

I get the whole, its golf, play it as it should be played. Once again, the PGA tour makes the rules, the players are going to take any advantage they can get. Honestly its not that big of a deal to do, drop clean and place. I played in a couple of tournaments in high school under those rules. Heck we had a day were the green on one par 4 was so unfair, they said try to make the first putt, but then pick up. Cause the ohio Open was there a week before, and they had people walking off the course because they ended up with like 5 putts. It was just crazy. So, in FAIRNESS to the players in the Tournament, they created a rule that would not be under the USGA. It was for all the players.

[clutchshot]

The difference between us playing and the pros is this.... The pros are playing for millions of dollars and truely competing for who is best. If a player shoots a 67 in the sun, then a storm rolls in and the next guy shoots a 67 in the rain, is it really fair they tied? Player 2 actually played much better to get the same score. If every player was in the same exact conditions, I would say play on, when I play with my buddies, we all tee up together and play the same weather so it's game on, but this isn't always the case when some tee off at 8 in the morning and some tee off at 2.

[Strandly]

They are not in the business to entertain. Just because we watch them play, and it drives their money purses, it doesn't mean it drives the players style or choices of golf shots. Our watching is circumstantial to anything they do. Given if we stop watching there would be no tour. NASCAR drivers don't crash on purpose because people enjoy the suspense and carnage of the crash. I don't sit back and think, ooh mud ball exciting. We can't even tell its a mud ball, so why does it matter.

Of course they are.  Do you think any of the tour players showed up at an event and the PGA was like SURPRISE, you're gonna be on the tee-vee! Your claim is utter nonsense.

The point is anyone can play for money.  If Bill Gates and Warren Buffet played a round at some random course with 50 million on the line and hacked their way around with scores of 110 and 115 do you think anyone would care?  No, because they're terrible players who happen to be playing for money and virtually nobody is entertained by that, they know it and I know it.

Since you brought up other sports let's use another example...  I live in Denver and visiting NFL teams get screwed by the thin air up here.  Is that fair?  When Miami goes and plays in a blizzard in Foxborough is that fair for them?  Not hardly.  Sports aren't fair, and that's part of what makes great players truly great, because they manage to win anyway.

I'm not saying the PGA can't make the rules that they do, I just happen to agree that this (fluff) one is quite lame.

[saevel25]

Of course they are.  Do you think any of the tour players showed up at an event and the PGA was like SURPRISE, you're gonna be on the tee-vee!  Your claim is utter nonsense.

The point is anyone can play for money.  If Bill Gates and Warren Buffet played a round at some random course with 50 million on the line and hacked their way around with scores of 110 and 115 do you think anyone would care?  No, because they're terrible players who happen to be playing for money and virtually nobody is entertained by that, they know it and I know it.

Since you brought up other sports let's use another example...  I live in Denver and visiting NFL teams get screwed by the thin air up here.  Is that fair?  When Miami goes and plays in a blizzard in Foxborough is that fair for them?  Not hardly.  Sports aren't fair, and that's part of what makes great players truly great, because they manage to win anyway.

I'm not saying the PGA can't make the rules that they do, I just happen to agree that this (fluff) one is quite lame.

Want to talk about Denver, how about the Colorado Rockies, they put baseball in a Humidifier to make the game more fair. So, in cases were they can achieve an even playing field they could. I guess if Denver wanted to, build a new stadium, make it a dome, and pump extra oxygen into the stadium to make it fair. Its possible.

Honestly i could care less if they do or don't have the preferred lies. I am just not going to sit back and hammer the PGA for making a rule that is trying to benefit the whole playing field. So i see no issue it, its up to the PGA to decide. If the players voice there concern about it, which apparently they are not, then there is no issue. The only issue seems to be people who get upset about something that doesn't even effect them. When you get on the PGA, then your opinion will truly matter, else wise its just complaining about something that you can't change.