Scramble- When is a ball in play?

[TJBam]

So in a 4 person scramble, suppose they choose a tee shot that lies 75 yards from the hole.  Player 1 hits his shot on the green 10 inches from the hole.  Player 2 places his ball, then moves it and then hits it in the hole.  What score does the team record?

He would record an eagle that would be agreed to be a hole-in-one after little deliberation.  This is a SCRAMBLE we're talking about right?

[Jeremie Boop]

ok, so what if Player A above moves his ball and then hits it from the new position.  What would the penalty be?  Assuming it was a 4 person scramble, would the team then be forced to play that shot?

What happens when a guy tosses (or places) his ball on the ground and then rolls it with his club?  Penalty?

Ok, many people already stated this is not going to be something that's really enforced due to it being a scramble. That being said, if you were to actually wanting to enforce the ball being in play when placed then if the guy moved it then he's already "played" his stroke and should pick up the ball because his next shot wouldn't count.

[Fourputt]

In the scrambles that I play, what usually happens is that a player will drop a ball within the prescribed length of the chosen shot, and then roll it around with his/her club until they get a desirable lie. I rarely see people actually "place" their ball - the sole exception being a ball in the rough (where people will try to get the juciest, fluffiest lie they can by placing the ball gently). Even on the green, most times people will just drop the ball somewhere near the marker and then push it forward with their putter until they are ready to address. In any event, I never consider a scramble ball in play until someone has actually taken a stroke at the ball.

In my experience, the only scramble rule that has ever caused contention is when a player will miss a medium length putt - say a 15 footer - by a few inches. Rather than mark it, he will proceed to hole out the putt, even with other members of his group not having taken a run at the 15 footer. This happened on the 18th green at a recent scramble event, and caused a significant but good-natured uproar. The prior groups who were hanging around 18 claimed that the hole out was the conclusion of the hole, and despite the next player in the group sinking the birdie putt, they had to take the first guy's par.

Ultimately, the tournament organizer agreed to grant the team their birdie. But I would have agreed with him, had he said that the par putt stood.

Most scrambles I've played have specifically allowed what you describe here in the interest of speeding up play, with the proviso that if the player misses the tap-in he cancels the rest of his team's attempts at the previous putt.  I would probably make the tap-in automatically because of my previous experience unless there was something in the scramble "rules" which prohibited it.  It would be pretty self serving to deny the score to a team when the organizers were so lax as to not bother defining the proper procedure.

[iacas]

Most scrambles I've played have specifically allowed what you describe here in the interest of speeding up play, with the proviso that if the player misses the tap-in he cancels the rest of his team's attempts at the previous putt.  I would probably make the tap-in automatically because of my previous experience unless there was something in the scramble "rules" which prohibited it.  It would be pretty self serving to deny the score to a team when the organizers were so lax as to not bother defining the proper procedure.

Most of the scrambles I've played in are far more concerned about informing players where the beer can be found on the golf course than worrying about the rules for a tap-in. :)

[MEfree]

My goal is to never play in another scramble but somehow I get roped in. In Matt's defense they do some weird stuff up there, I played one of the courses he frequents last weekend. It was unbelievably slow but I didn't care because it was a day off in the mountains. Anyway my step-dad got irritated after seeing two groups of 5 ahead of us on the back 9. When the ranger rolled by he got crabby with him because of the slow 5's. The ranger without blinking said they're playing a scramble. Who goes out on the course and just randomly plays a scramble? From what I saw they pretty much let people do whatever they want up there. I watched a tourist that I talked to at the bar in the group ahead me play from 7000 yd tees and this guy was a 25+ handicap type. He hit a minimum of 3 balls OB on a par 3 and kept hitting until he put one in a spot he liked. It was the usual resort course madness.

Pretty unusual to see 5s there.  They do host a fair number of scrambles- normally they have the entire course blocked, but twice this season I played on days where part of the course was playing a scramble while others were playing normal.

Not sure what you consider unbelievable slow, but normally the rangers try to keep things moving (which is a challenge considering how bad some of the tourists are) and a round over 5 hours is the exception, not the rule.  Hope you enjoyed your day in the mountains.

At you. This is a stupid thread.

I'm moving it out of Rules of Golf because it doesn't belong here.

Everyone loves attacking me but I am not the guy saying that there should be a penalty for moving the ball after placing it- that was David.

I realize that outright cheating is rampant at many scrambles where drinking is more important than golfing, but I would consider this a more legitimate scramble as it was part of our regular Men's league comp with no string, etc involved.  Yes, I also realize that some of you view our Men's league as a joke, but I have enjoyed playing in it this season and don't know of anyone in the league who makes up scores with their pencil even if some don't know all the rules of golf.

I played in 3 scrambles in our league this season and, other than picking the best shot with preferred lies, feel everything was play legitimately with only two rules questions in 54 holes-

1.  In the mixed scramble, we played with a woman with a 40+ index who whiffed on several shots.  When she did this on the first tee, I couldn't tell if it was a practice swing or a whiff, so I didn't tell her to stop and not make a second swing.  She actually hit her second attempt pretty good and it would have presented a very good opportunity to get one of her drives out of the way, but one of our other teammates said she whiffed, so we picked someone else's drive instead.  Technically, I suppose there could be an argument made that once she made a 2nd swing, that she picked our "best shot" for use and we all should have dropped one on the ladies tee hitting two.  This did not occur to us at the time.

2.  Yesterday's instance.

In all 3 scrambles, everyone was careful not to hole their second putt until everyone had a chance to make the first one.  Except as noted above, the scores in my group were 100% legit according to the posted rules.

[iacas]

Everyone loves attacking me but I am not the guy saying that there should be a penalty for moving the ball after placing it- that was David.

I know who said it. But by posting this thread you clearly think that the Rules of Golf apply here, and that someone could be penalized for moving a "ball in play" in a scramble. Plus, given the annoyance level, I think it'd be funny to watch someone chasing you across the fairways because you tried to call a penalty on him in a freaking scramble!!! And dude, drop the persecution/martyr thing you've got going on here.

Scrambles are not a form of golf. The Rules of Golf quite literally do not apply. Until they add "Rule 33: Scrambles" under "Other Forms of Play" (and move the current 33 and 34 to 34 and 35), this is true. No matter how "serious" the scramble (I played in one a few weeks ago where the pro on the winning team got $2k, and I won $400 just on the parimutuel), they're virtually contested under a sort of "what everyone in your group thinks the rules of a scramble are." Sometimes sheets are given out which say things like "you can move your ball one clublength but not onto the green or out of a hazard," sometimes mulligans are allowed, sometimes they have string, etc. But generally, people are just operating under the unwritten rules they've always kind of used.

I'll say it again:

Scrambles are not a form of golf. The Rules of Golf quite literally do not apply.

[MEfree]

In my opinion, given the loosey-goosey nature of a scramble, a ball should not be deemed to be in play until a stroke has been made on it.

According to http://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=126 the ROG don't apply to a scramble and it is up to the committee to determine the rules (but I have seen some scramble rules sheets say that USGA rules apply except as noted).

To be clear, I am saying a player should NOT be penalized for moving a ball that has been placed on the ground without a stroke being made on it in a scramble.  However, if a player moved his ball AFTER a stroke had been made on it (i.e. a double hit while it was moving), then yes, that should be counted as a penalty (but the team would still keep the option of selecting another ball to play).

I didn't say the rules of golf apply automatically, in fact, I said the opposite.

I know who said it. But by posting this thread you clearly think that the Rules of Golf apply here, and that someone could be penalized for moving a "ball in play" in a scramble. Plus, given the annoyance level, I think it'd be funny to watch someone chasing you across the fairways because you tried to call a penalty on him in a freaking scramble!!!  And dude, drop the persecution/martyr thing you've got going on here.

Scrambles are not a form of golf. The Rules of Golf quite literally do not apply. Until they add "Rule 33: Scrambles" under "Other Forms of Play" (and move the current 33 and 34 to 34 and 35), this is true. No matter how "serious" the scramble (I played in one a few weeks ago where the pro on the winning team got $2k, and I won $400 just on the parimutuel), they're virtually contested under a sort of "what everyone in your group thinks the rules of a scramble are." Sometimes sheets are given out which say things like "you can move your ball one clublength but not onto the green or out of a hazard," sometimes mulligans are allowed, sometimes they have string, etc. But generally, people are just operating under the unwritten rules they've always kind of used.

I'll say it again:

Scrambles are not a form of golf. The Rules of Golf quite literally do not apply.

If the committee says that they are invoking USGA rules (other than the picking best shot/placement option), then yes, I do think they should apply.  How else are you able to agree what the rules are if you ignore the committee's rules?

It is worth noting the USGA does recommend that a hole in one made in a scramble be considered valid while a hole in one made during a 2 ball practice round is not.

1. GOLF SCRAMBLE RULES : (all golf rules shall conform to USGA Rules )

   

   www.jjmahoneys.com/jj%20 GOLF %20 SCRAMBLE %20 RULES .doc

   File format: Microsoft Word

   GOLF SCRAMBLE RULES : (all golf rules shall conform to USGA Rules ) Author: Paul Armour Last modified by: JJ Mahoneys Created Date: 7/22/2009 7:59:00 PM Other titles:
2. [ PDF ]

   2011 UST FACULTY / STAFF GOLF TOURNAMENT - University of St ...

   

   banner.stthomas.edu/htmldocs/ Golf _ Rules .pdf

   File format: Adobe PDF

   GOLF SCRAMBLE RULES : (all golf rules shall conform to USGA Rules ) FORMAT: Four person scramble tournament. GOLF ETIQUETTE: 1. Please smooth all marks made in Sand ...

RULES FAQ

Rule Misc.

Validity of Hole in One

Q. What constitutes the validity of a hole in one?

A. The Rules of Golf do not address the issue of the validity of a hole-in-one. It is up to the Committee to determine whether a hole-in-one is valid. The USGA recommends that a hole-in-one be considered valid:

b. If the player is playing one ball; a hole-in-one made in a practice round in which the player is playing two or more balls should not be acceptable.

e. If made in a "scramble" competition, which is played as follows: A side comprises four players. Each member of a side plays from the teeing ground, the best drive is selected, each member plays a second shot from where the best drive is located, and so on.

[iacas]

Nothing you said invalidates what I said. The head referee of an NFL game can say "otherwise all USGA Rules apply" and it would matter almost as little as it does in your example. A scramble is not a form of play in the Rules of Golf. It's really that simple.

[Nutter]

It's a scramble, for pete's sake.  Buying unlimited mulligans, using string, keeping your own score.  There are no rules.

Exactly