Backswing or Impact - Delusional Thoughts on Why its a No-Brainer

[Everthing Golf]

Yeah it is but you're are the one talking about establishing impact conditions at address.  That's how different address is from impact.

Establishing impact conditions at address doesn't mean adopting exact impact positions at address. I think I have already established this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

So if good address = good impact, why aren't you a low single digit handicap?

Ouch! But I could be and I have left a point out of my stated handicap or a plus sign.

However, that's not an argument I've known golfers with excellent ball striking ability who fail to get to single digits because of other ghosts that this game can throw at you.

If the backswing is causing issues on the downswing then working on the backswing is working on improving impact

I couldn't have put that any better myself. That's why I allocate 5% of my time to such things.

[Everthing Golf]

Depends on what causes the issue, they are both intertwined to a certain degree. If you take the club way to the inside, which is not a set up related issue, but its a backswing issue that requires a compensation to get the correct impact conditions you want.

I didn't say you don't need to work on other parts of the swing, I just think golfers shouldn't be getting too bogged down by them.

As someone already said on this thread, "I could rest the club on my right shoulder and probably hit the ball better than a 1.2 handicapper."

That's because he has confidence in his ability to attain good impact positions with any old back swing.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by Everthing Golf

We're going round in circles a bit here.

Establishing impact conditions at address doesn't mean adopting exact impact positions at address. I think I have already established this point.

Ouch! But I could be and I have left a point out of my stated handicap or a plus sign.

However, that's not an argument I've known golfers with excellent ball striking ability who fail to get to single digits because of other ghosts that this game can throw at you.

I couldn't have put that any better myself. That's why I allocate 5% of my time to such things.

Actually we weren't till your last two posts.

That was not what you were saying for the whole thread up till now.

You might put 5% to such things, but if that is the primary fault of somebody's swing, then that must be worked on at a higher percentage. Like for me, I take the club head way behind me in the back swing. This causes me to come over the top. I do get into the slot, but it makes it near impossible for me to change that momentum of that such movement to one coming that should come the inside. This causes me to hit a slight pull fade. Which I can play, but I want to be able to hit a proper push draw. So to fix this, I MUST fix the back swing. Which means I must prioritize it, especially above 5%.

[Golfingdad]

I'm being a bit random here, I know, but it relates to the topic at hand ...

Yesterday at the range I was hitting it quite poorly so I spent the last 10-15 balls doing the "preset drill."  (For those unfamiliar ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/35686/eriks-hips-forward-pre-set-drill-video/0_30#post_458570) I was immediately hitting the ball crisp and solid again, and with a nice draw.  I was hitting a 9-iron at the 150 yard target.  With my normal swing, when I strike it really well, it's probably going about 160 (this range is typically downwind), and with the preset drill, I was hitting it about 145.  So about a 10% dropoff.

If somebody is not really hurting for distance - and, of course, doesn't mind being laughed at - why would he not just play from that position?

[mvmac]

Ouch! But I could be and I have left a point out of my stated handicap or a plus sign.

However, that's not an argument I've known golfers with excellent ball striking ability who fail to get to single digits because of other ghosts that this game can throw at you.

Yes sorry it was a little harsh but just trying to make a point.  I would strongly disagree that you can be an excellent ball striker and not be a low single digit handicap.  We probably just have different definitions of what an excellent ball striker is.

I'm being a bit random here, I know, but it relates to the topic at hand ...

Yesterday at the range I was hitting it quite poorly so I spent the last 10-15 balls doing the "preset drill."  (For those unfamiliar ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/35686/eriks-hips-forward-pre-set-drill-video/0_30#post_458570)  I was immediately hitting the ball crisp and solid again, and with a nice draw.  I was hitting a 9-iron at the 150 yard target.  With my normal swing, when I strike it really well, it's probably going about 160 (this range is typically downwind), and with the preset drill, I was hitting it about 145.  So about a 10% dropoff.

If somebody is not really hurting for distance - and, of course, doesn't mind being laughed at - why would he not just play from that position?

I've seen a few high handicap players/beginners really change their games by adopting this kind of set-up.  Can work very well for the right player.  Troy Matteson played for a couple seasons with a similar address position.  A player would have to watch out for rotating their Key #4 too far to the right for a couple reasons.  The backswing will tend to have the arms more inward with slightly flatter hips/shoulders.  Then on the downswing the hips and shoulders might be aimed too far to the right.  Basically the player could end up hitting hooks and big pushes.

[Golfingdad]

Yes sorry it was a little harsh but just trying to make a point.  I would strongly disagree that you can be an excellent ball striker and not be a low single digit handicap.  We probably just have different definitions of what an excellent ball striker is. I've seen a few high handicap players/beginners really change their games by adopting this kind of set-up.  Can work very well for the right player.  Troy Matteson played for a couple seasons with a similar address position.  A player would have to watch out for rotating their Key #4 too far to the right for a couple reasons.  The backswing will tend to have the arms more inward with slightly flatter hips/shoulders.  Then on the downswing the hips and shoulders might be aimed too far to the right.  Basically the player could end up hitting hooks and big pushes.

Thanks mike, that makes sense. Seeing as how I was hitting 5 yard draws with a 9 iron, they probably would turn into some big hooks with longer clubs. :)

[turtleback]

How can you even control the impact position directly?  What you can do is control how you get to that impact position, which is via your whole swing.  I've always understood that you don't really want to have the feel of hitting the ball, ie, impact, but rather making a good swing that the ball just happens to get in the way of.  Impact takes what?  A thousandth of a second?  A ten thousandth?  How can the human body control that?  It can't - what it can control is how you get to that point and what you do after that point.  In other words, the swing.

[Everthing Golf]

Actually we weren't till your last two posts.

That was not what you were saying for the whole thread up till now.

You might put 5% to such things, but if that is the primary fault of somebody's swing, then that must be worked on at a higher percentage. Like for me, I take the club head way behind me in the back swing. This causes me to come over the top. I do get into the slot, but it makes it near impossible for me to change that momentum of that such movement to one coming that should come the inside. This causes me to hit a slight pull fade. Which I can play, but I want to be able to hit a proper push draw. So to fix this, I MUST fix the back swing. Which means I must prioritize it, especially above 5%.

I don't disagree with what you are saying and working on other parts of the swing should not be ignored.

From my experience, golfers and teaching pros allocate far too much time on parts of the swing that IMO don't accredit such importance.

It only stands to reason that your main intention during a swing will automatically be what you were working on during your last practice session. And again, IMO, if that's not an impact intention then you will be directing your focus somewhere other than the most important moment in the swing.

Like I said earlier, one intention - 100% focus, two intentions - 50% focus (at most) etc. Get your swing down before you go onto the course and trust what you have on the day. If you are going to have a swing intention/thought, then make sure you are focussing on impact.

Focussing on other parts of the swing is just wrong. A guy with a big axe has only one intention, hit the tree; an archer, the moment to let go; a baseball/tennis player, hit the ball; IOW they focus on the moment of truth. I know I'm in for an attack about how golf is a much more intricate move than these examples but its the same ball park. Bottom line its all about impact.

If you're casting or coming OTT at the start of the downswing then returning to the desired impact position is probably impossible. A little work on this fault would be advisable but as for the backswing, you can recover from most of those errors prior to impact but that's another topic.

[Everthing Golf]

Yes sorry it was a little harsh but just trying to make a point.  I would strongly disagree that you can be an excellent ball striker and not be a low single digit handicap.  We probably just have different definitions of what an excellent ball striker is.

Thanks, and I agree that most excellent ball strikers will have low single digit handicaps but things like the yips (I hate even using the word) can ruin careers - Baker-Finch, Ballesteros, Me - not to mention how mental/psychological issues can hold an excellent player back from his true potential.

[iacas]

Patrick,

First, you know well enough to multiquote, so please start doing so.

And again, IMO, if that's not an impact intention then you will be directing your focus somewhere other than the most important moment in the swing.

…

Focussing on other parts of the swing is just wrong.

No, it's not "just wrong." As I have said a few times now, focusing on the backswing often improves "the most important moment in the swing." EVERY good instructor is focusing on "impact."

If you're casting or coming OTT at the start of the downswing then returning to the desired impact position is probably impossible. A little work on this fault would be advisable but as for the backswing, you can recover from most of those errors prior to impact but that's another topic.

"Can recover" and "are likely to recover" are two very different things.

At this point, I'll ask that you do as requested above: show us pictures of your setup, or a video of your swing. You have no valid reasons that I can conceive not to do so, especially given that you're wealthy enough to be in Australia and the UK within hours on the same day. I'm sure you have at least a three-year-old cell phone camera lying about.

So let's see it. Let's see something. You're all talk at this point - talk that's bordering on nonsensical and ignoring the many, many valid responses posted by myself and others.

[Ernest Jones]

Hi Patrick @EverythingGolf

LOL, oops, I mentioned the wrong Everything Golf guy, that'll be confusing.

Didn't notice that Patrick can't spell either...

Anywho...I meant to mention @Everthing Golf not the other, spell capable, guy.

[Everthing Golf]

How can you even control the impact position directly?

Yes, that's the million dollar question. I'm sure if you asked any of the golfing greats they would have a stab at answering that question and be gunned down a little for their explanations. I have been having a stab at answering that question here on this thread and continue to do so.

Having a strong understanding of the most important impact conditions and an awareness or feeling for them is where its all at.

My setup/address focuses on preparing my body for impact and that's what I refer to as good impact conditions at address.

What you can do is control how you get to that impact position, which is via your whole swing.

Debatable. Where's your focus? Is it centered on a particular aspect of the swing?

I've always understood that you don't really want to have the feel of hitting the ball, ie, impact, but rather making a good swing that the ball just happens to get in the way of.

Yeah, I always thought that sounded really good too but again there's no real centered focus on that one.

Impact takes what?  A thousandth of a second?  A ten thousandth?  How can the human body control that?  It can't - what it can control is how you get to that point and what you do after that point.  In other words, the swing.

Again debatable. I personally think the thousandth of a second is easier to control than the thousands of things that are happening during the two second swing.

[Everthing Golf]

Originally Posted by iacas

At this point, I'll ask that you do as requested above: show us pictures of your setup, or a video of your swing. You have no valid reasons that I can conceive not to do so

So let's see it. Let's see something. You're all talk at this point - talk that's bordering on nonsensical and ignoring the many, many valid responses posted by myself and others.

OK

[k-troop]

I have established all of these things and more during my setup but I commit to only one...

At the moment that's my awareness of forward lean.

Forward lean is your single point of focus at this point?  Is that your swing you've posted?  That almost looks like a reverse weight shift at impact.

[Ernest Jones]

OK [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/85035/] [/URL]

I'm on an iPhone so the image is a little small but it looks pretty flippity-do-da-day to me.

[Everthing Golf]

Forward lean is your single point of focus at this point?  Is that your swing you've posted?  That almost looks like a reverse weight shift at impact.

Sorry, this ones much better...

[Ernest Jones]

Are you a lefty or a righty?

[k-troop]

Sorry, this ones much better...

Yeah, your swing looks much better left handed.  I'm done with this thread.  You're either a troll or illiterate.