NBA Finals

[Jakester23]

I didn't say he imposed his will on them. I think he's the GOAT along with a lot of other more knowledgeable people than myself. He has 6 rings with 6 finals MVP's. He was the best ever on the biggest stage. Also undefeated in the finals.

[Slice of Life]

Really.....you just conveniently left out how the true answer to the question and tried to make it fit your argument by posting what they did in their first title year.  Why didn't the Bulls do anything in the 6 years prior to Phil showing up? Because they were getting beaten by better teams:

Chicago Bulls Playoff History

1990 -- defeated Milwaukee, 3-1, first round

defeated Philadelphia, 4-1, conference semifinals

lost to Detroit, 4-3, conference finals

1989 -- defeated Cleveland, 3-2, first round

defeated New York, 4-2, conference semifinals

lost to Detroit, 4-2, conference finals

1988 -- defeated Cleveland, 3-2, first round

lost to Detroit, 4-1, conference semifinals

1987 -- lost to Boston, 3-0, first round

1986 -- lost to Boston, 3-0, first round

1985 -- lost to Milwaukee, 3-1, first round

The Lakers won titles in 85,87, and 88 so they existed in the NBA at the time, were hardly invalid, and I'm sure that the Bulls and Lakers played ( the Lakers were 10-6 against the Bulls during this time in the regular season, but never in the playoffs because the Bulls didn't make it to the finals in MJ's first 6 years.) Then Magic retired in 1991, Bird retired a year later, and the pistons won titles in 89 and 90 so please show me where Michael Jordan imposed his will against better teams during the first 6 years of his career.........I'll wait.

He was still getting into his prime. Just like LeBron his first 7 years.

Difference is, when Jordan hit it...everyone else paid for it. 6 finals appearances...6 championships. THE END.

All your playoff stats show is that he kept improving until he won it all...and then he kept winning it all.

[Jakester23]

Adding to that most of the time a team with a top 3 draft pick are horrible so it takes some time to build a championship caliber team.

[Spyder]

@Slice of Life ng to local sports media, 92.3 The Fan in particular, also? I'm already sick of hearing about the potential fantasy of LeBron, Carmelo, Kyrie and Wiggins on one team. It will likely be Kyrie, Waiters, Wiggins, Thompson and Hawes.

I expect Andy to get traded in this attempt to open up cap space. Hell, I wouldn't doubt it if Waiters is gone too (which in my opinion would be a bad choice). Thompson is not consistent enough to be effective. I really like Hawes and I'm hoping he's here for a while because he's a hell of a scoring Center and has great glass presence on both ends of the court.

It'll be interesting for sure, but I'm only about 10% optimistic that LeBron comes back to Cleveland. Landing Carmelo and LeBron is as likely to happen as Dan "The Plan" making the PGA Tour.

I'm a die-hard Cavs fan, but I really don't see anything to be overly excited about just yet. Although trading the #1 pick for Thad Young (Sixers) and their pick sounded really good. Though, Wiggins likely has a much higher ceiling than Young for a much lower cost.

[Slice of Life]

@Slice of Life are you listening to local sports media, 92.3 The Fan in particular, also? I'm already sick of hearing about the potential fantasy of LeBron, Carmelo, Kyrie and Wiggins on one team. It will likely be Kyrie, Waiters, Wiggins, Thompson and Hawes.

I expect Andy to get traded in this attempt to open up cap space. Hell, I wouldn't doubt it if Waiters is gone too (which in my opinion would be a bad choice). Thompson is not consistent enough to be effective. I really like Hawes and I'm hoping he's here for a while because he's a hell of a scoring Center and has great glass presence on both ends of the court.

It'll be interesting for sure, but I'm only about 10% optimistic that LeBron comes back to Cleveland. Landing Carmelo and LeBron is as likely to happen as Dan "The Plan" making the PGA Tour.

I'm a die-hard Cavs fan, but I really don't see anything to be overly excited about just yet. Although trading the #1 pick for Thad Young (Sixers) and their pick sounded really good. Though, Wiggins likely has a much higher ceiling than Young for a much lower cost.

I'm 0% optimistic for LeBron coming back...mostly because I don't want him back. I'd rather win with a team.

I'm not sure what they're going to do Thursday, but whatever it is...I'm sure it'll end badly. lol

[Spyder]

I'm 0% optimistic for LeBron coming back...mostly because I don't want him back. I'd rather win with a team.

I'm not sure what they're going to do Thursday, but whatever it is...I'm sure it'll end badly. lol

lol I hear you. I'm just hoping they take Wiggins, but I'm sure they will take Embiid. At least's we'll get some use out of Bennet then since he can serve as Embiid's personal, human ottoman.

[Righty to Lefty]

He was still getting into his prime. Just like LeBron his first 7 years.

Difference is, when Jordan hit it...everyone else paid for it. 6 finals appearances...6 championships. THE END.

All your playoff stats show is that he kept improving until he won it all...and then he kept winning it all.

Adding to that most of the time a team with a top 3 draft pick are horrible so it takes some time to build a championship caliber team.

So you both have no began to make excuses for the supposed best player to have ever put on basketball shoes. So he got his ass kicked until all of the people who were whoopin his ass previously retired and were no longer available to provide said whoopings???? Is anyone else reading ?????

[Slice of Life]

So you both have no began to make excuses for the supposed best player to have ever put on basketball shoes. So he got his ass kicked until all of the people who were whoopin his ass previously retired and were no longer available to provide said whoopings???? Is anyone else reading ?????

No...basketball is a sport of learning. Find me any player who joined a team and started willing his team to championships immediately. Doesn't happen. It takes time to learn, it takes time to get better at that level, and it takes time to reach your prime. Which is why I gave LeBron a pass for so many years as well.

What you read as excuses are widely considered "facts" by people who've forgotten more about basketball than you or I will ever know.

BTW...didn't the Bulls sweep the bad-boy Pistons to reach the finals before they beat the Lakers?

[Righty to Lefty]

No...basketball is a sport of learning. Find me any player who joined a team and started willing his team to championships immediately. Doesn't happen. It takes time to learn, it takes time to get better at that level, and it takes time to reach your prime. Which is why I gave LeBron a pass for so many years as well.

What you read as excuses are widely considered "facts" by people who've forgotten more about basketball than you or I will ever know.

BTW...didn't the Bulls sweep the bad-boy Pistons to reach the finals before they beat the Lakers?

Bill Russell came into the league in 1956 to a Boston Celtics team that had never won a championship and one year later reeled off 11 championships in 13 years so there you go.

the Bulls did beat the bad boy Pistons due the fact that Isaiah Thomas had surgery on his wrist just prior to the playoffs and the team was well past their prime as most of the players began to retire over the next two seasons:

"The Pistons' championship run came to an end in the 1991 Eastern Conference Finals, as the Pistons were swept by the eventual NBA champion Chicago Bulls, 4 games to 0. The most critical Piston injury belonged to Isiah Thomas who had surgery on his wrist just prior to the playoffs . Following this, the franchise went through a lengthy transitional period, as key players either retired or were traded. The team quickly declined." Source: Wikipedia

[Jakester23]

You do realize that Russell won 3 titles with only 9 other NBA teams. The other 8 with only 14 NBA teams in the league right?

[Righty to Lefty]

So what you are telling me is that the league wasn't as strong when Bill Russell played when compared to Jordan's era.....I mean they are only like 30 years apart? The game couldn't have come that far between those times? I already know that your answer to those questions is yes....and by that rationale you are in turn saying that in the 15 years between Jordan's era and Lebron's era that the game has stagnated, and even digressed during this time. So you are saying that the league went from too few teams during Russell's era, to just the right amount during Jordan's era, to absolutely overrun with teams during Lebron's era? If you answer yes to those questions then I am for sure done with this thread. The other question that I would have is to ask if Lebron and Jordan switched places and era's are you saying that Lebron couldn't have led to Bulls to 6 titles, and are you sayig that Jordan would still be undefeated in the finals if he was on those Heat and Cavs teams?

[Jakester23]

First of all your reading comprehension needs work. Im not saying the league was bad in Russell's era at all. But hes not even in the conversation of GOAT so bringing him up is stupid. I do think there was better talent in the league from 85-95 than there is now yes. A lot of that is because there are A) to many team's in the league now. B) AAU has made players learn how to play a lot of one on one basketball. C) players either coming straight out of high school (or now one and done) aren't nearly as well rounded as they were when most players had 4 years of college. I don't think LeBron could have led the bulls to 6 title's. Not because he isn't good because he wouldn't fit with that team as well as MJ. I also don't think MJ would have won with Cleveland. He wouldn't have even played on the heat so that question is irrelevant. IMO he had a better will to win than LBJ has. He averaged 41 points in the finals one year because that's what it took to win. If you don't think LeBron disappeared in the finals vs Dallas then your on drugs.

[Righty to Lefty]

First of all your reading comprehension needs work. Im not saying the league was bad in Russell's era at all. But hes not even in the conversation of GOAT so bringing him up is stupid. I do think there was better talent in the league from 85-95 than there is now yes. A lot of that is because there are A) to many team's in the league now. B) AAU has made players learn how to play a lot of one on one basketball. C) players either coming straight out of high school (or now one and done) aren't nearly as well rounded as they were when most players had 4 years of college. I don't think LeBron could have led the bulls to 6 title's. Not because he isn't good because he wouldn't fit with that team as well as MJ. I also don't think MJ would have won with Cleveland. He wouldn't have even played on the heat so that question is irrelevant. IMO he had a better will to win than LBJ has. He averaged 41 points in the finals one year because that's what it took to win. If you don't think LeBron disappeared in the finals vs Dallas then your on drugs.

No what I am watching on this blog is a bunch of flip flopping on what the measuring stick is. First everyone wants to say that MJ went 6 and 0 in the finals...PERIOD but the last I checked 11 championships are greater than 6, but that guy isn't even in the conversation???? Then you are sit there and say that there were too few teams when Russell played but now there are too many now that Lebron is in the league and the league is watered down which is silly because it would benefit Lebron more to have fewer teams because he would have had a better chance to play with better players if there were fewer teams in the league. He's still the best player in the league whether there's 9 teams or 39 teams he is still the best player.

I prefer not to take drugs but I was perfectly sober when I watched every single second of every playoff game that the Mavs played the year that they beat the Heat in the finals because I am a Mavs fan, and I made plenty of money that year because I knew the Mavs were the best TEAM in the playoffs that year. There is a reason why the Mavs give the Spurs problems...because they are much the same team and play the same style of team basketball and are very well coached. The Mavs outsmarted the Heat and it was beautiful to watch and I could see it coming very early on in the playoffs. The Mavs had broken down every single tendency  that Lebron had and made sure that they forced him into situations that gave him the lowest percentage to succeed.

If you say that MJ wouldn't have won the title in Cleveland then you are admitting that he wasn't indestructible and happened to be very talented and play on a very well put together team with one of, if not the best coach in the history of the game so lets just keep it real. And to say that he would have just stayed in Cleveland and gutted it out in today's game with all it's regulations and caps and such is wishful thinking.

[Jakester23]

He would have stayed in Cleveland look at what Chicago was when he got there. Bill Russell was even the best center during his era so just stop with that 11 title's bullshit. LeBron is the best player in the league now no doubt. I think he's great but people like you make me want to pull my hair out. How did he pass Kareem, magic, kobe, bird, and Oscar to even be in the conversation with MJ? He has 2 titles and has lost two years in the finals with the better team. Do just hate MJ? [URL]http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/j/lebron_james_vs_michael_jordan.htm[/URL] here's a good comparison between the 2.

[Slice of Life]

The other question that I would have is to ask if Lebron and Jordan switched places and era's are you saying that Lebron couldn't have led to Bulls to 6 titles, and are you sayig that Jordan would still be undefeated in the finals if he was on those Heat and Cavs teams?

Correct.

Watch the play of LeBron James when it counts the most...it isn't elevated, it isn't comparable, it's worse. Sloppy, uninspired, completely un-clutch. As someone who's watched (I can only assume) far more regular season and playoff games of LeBron's...his inability to perform when it matters most is at best, inconsistent. There were at least two years with the Cavs, where if LeBron played in the playoffs the way Jordan did, they would have won the championship.

LeBron gives up. I've seen it...multiple times. Both in person, and on television. He doesn't have the same mentality, drive, and passion as Jordan.

Hell, with the arguably better team, LeBron is only 2-2 in the Finals, and if it weren't for Ray Allen bailing out his sad performance in game 6 last year, he'd be 1-3.

[Jakester23]

You also can't overlook the fact that the east is terrible and has been for the last 5-10 years. The heat have only had to beat one decent team a year to even get to the finals

[Righty to Lefty]

He would have stayed in Cleveland look at what Chicago was when he got there. Bill Russell was even the best center during his era so just stop with that 11 title's bullshit. LeBron is the best player in the league now no doubt. I think he's great but people like you make me want to pull my hair out. How did he pass Kareem, magic, kobe, bird, and Oscar to even be in the conversation with MJ? He has 2 titles and has lost two years in the finals with the better team. Do just hate MJ? http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/j/lebron_james_vs_michael_jordan.htm

here's a good comparison between the 2.

Matter of fact I am a fan of both MJ and Lebron as I am in awe of how both of them dominate on the court. Since we are now getting past the "11 title's bullshit" which is exactly what I was trying to erase from the conversation because it should not determine the GOAT especially in a team sport. Lebron's number's line up very nicely with MJ's in 4 fewer seasons thus far and more so in the postseason their numbers are almost the exact same and that can't be denied. If his numbers already compare very favorably to MJ's in 4 fewer seasons, who is already your GOAT, then yes he skips over a lot of people. Please show me exactly where MJ's numbers just blow LBJ's out of the water in the regular or postseason because it 's not there. LBJ rebounds and assists better already, shoots identically from the field, and will score the same amount of points as he approaches the same amount of games played. What 2 years did he lose in the finals when he was on the better team? They were absolutely not a better team than the Mavs nor the Spurs either time they lost to them. It is fair to say that the only time they were the better team was when they played OKC and even that can be debated.

Correct.

Watch the play of LeBron James when it counts the most...it isn't elevated, it isn't comparable, it's worse. Sloppy, uninspired, completely un-clutch. As someone who's watched (I can only assume) far more regular season and playoff games of LeBron's...his inability to perform when it matters most is at best, inconsistent. There were at least two years with the Cavs, where if LeBron played in the playoffs the way Jordan did, they would have won the championship.

LeBron gives up. I've seen it...multiple times. Both in person, and on television. He doesn't have the same mentality, drive, and passion as Jordan.

Hell, with the arguably better team, LeBron is only 2-2 in the Finals, and if it weren't for Ray Allen bailing out his sad performance in game 6 last year, he'd be 1-3.

You are crazy if you truly think that MJ would have still gone undefeated in the playoffs with the teams LBJ played on in the finals. Please show me where he "quits," which is absolute B.S. by the way, as his regular and postseason numbers compare in every way to MJ's http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/j/lebron_james_vs_michael_jordan.htm . Well if Paxon and Kerr didn't bail out Jordan the Bulls might have lost in the finals also so that is just a groundless and ridiculous argument. A great team can render a great player ineffective just like the Seahawks did to Peyton Manning in the Superbowl and make them look very ordinary if they are well coached and prepared and execute the gameplan.

[Righty to Lefty]

Food for thought from a Jordan supporter.