Shaft Flex doesn't matter! - Mark Crossfield

[Jakester23]

For a putter yes. For a driver kinda i got a bombtech so a basic fitting. I honestly can't see the point until i have a more consistent swing. I've been making swing changes for 2 or 3 years now so why get fit for something when I'm making significant changes. I will once i have a more consistent swing but I'm set for a while. I do think there is a reason for a fitting I just don't believe that a shaft makes a big difference. Lie angle, loft, and shaft length that's what I feel a fitting in is ment to figure out. When i purchased my hybrids I hit every hybrid they had at the store. I picked the one of the two I got the best numbers with. I went with the one I because liked the look of better.

[rdsandy]

I've honestly never picked up a club and thought to myself that i don't like the feel of that shaft. I've always based how much I do or don't like clubs on how they look and feel/sound. I don't hit a ton of different clubs though.

I play reg flex irons and stiff flex fairway woods and a reg flex driver. I have also swung and hit my wife's ladies flex clubs. As you said, never really hit a club that felt "bad" to me. I can hit the stiff just as well(bad) as the ladies flex. That being said, I keep 2 identical bags, one for Florida and one for NJ. I bought 4 sets of my irons used on eBay to make 2 sets that all had the same flex shafts, go figure.

[saevel25]

Yes obviously, I did watch it. Still would like to see how it affects a higher handicap golfer. What shaft variances make them more and less likely to be able to do that. Seeing a pro hit a bunch of different shafts should produce predictable results. Just saying fix your swing is a common answer and many think club fitting benefits the more skilled golfer, and I would agree. Still would be interesting to see it they could find something best suited to a lesser skilled golfer if it's even possible.

Nope, they wouldn't. The good thing about Crossfield doing the testing is he has very neutral swing path numbers. So he can get you a pretty straight up comparison between shafts. Basically his swing doesn't have much variance in it. Now what will a high handicapper introduce to that same test, uncertainty. With any scientific study, uncertainty is not wanted. Basically you wouldn't see any comparison between shafts at all because there is too much noise that a high handicap player will introduce. If you do try to take, lets say their 5 best shots that are similar, then you just taken out the noise and you get Mark Crossfield basically. It probably just Crossfield is able to get those good shots more often. The only thing higher handicapers are good at, is repeating a bad swing.

If you've ever been fit you probably noticed some shafts just felt bad for you and others better.  Mark kind of splits hairs here. While 6 yards and two degrees may be a mile of difference to him a poor golfer probably sees a 100 yard difference between their best and worse drives on any day. What I'd like to know is if being fit for a shaft tightens it up a bit for that golfer. Say take 3-4 of their swings where the swing numbers are somewhat close and see how different shafts change the ball numbers.

Yes they do see a bit difference in driving distance, but it isn't 100 yards unless they are duffing a drive. Yet for them a fitted driver wont matter. A golf shaft wont stop a person from duffing a driver.

It wont tighten it up as much as you think.

Do golf shafts feel different, yea. Basically all golf shaft does is get you a marginal optimization, but more importantly offers confidence in a strike the feels better. Still you got to hit that club well anyways.

[Hammer 4]

I play reg flex irons and stiff flex fairway woods and a reg flex driver. I have also swung and hit my wife's ladies flex clubs. As you said, never really hit a club that felt "bad" to me. I can hit the stiff just as well(bad) as the ladies flex. That being said, I keep 2 identical bags, one for Florida and one for NJ. I bought 4 sets of my irons used on eBay to make 2 sets that all had the same flex shafts, go figure.

I'm just the opposite. Stiff shafts in my irons DGS300, and reg flex in my 3h, 3 wood, and driver.

[Dave2512]

Do golf shafts feel different, yea. Basically all golf shaft does is get you a marginal optimization, but more importantly offers confidence in a strike the feels better. Still you got to hit that club well anyways.

That is why I think Mark is stating the obvious here. Don' t think he needed to do a 25 minute video to say your swing matters more than your equipment. But it would have been nice to see how it affects or doesn't golfers wiith less ability through a range of their average swings. Maybe not with driver, harder to control for the weekend warrior, but some different iron shafts where there is more variance in materials and design.

[saevel25]

You'd probably wouldn't see a difference. Even If you took the top 5 best shots, you'll probably see the same trends Mark has already shown.

[Jakester23]

Stating the obvious for who? Look on just this site. How many people talk about what shaft they wish this or that driver offered? A lot of people feel like they are making a dramatic change by changing their shafts.

[Dave2512]

I'm not going to give up my KBS Tour s-flex shafts for some 55g graphite shafts any time soon.

[Dave2512]

Stating the obvious for who? Look on just this site. How many people talk about what shaft they wish this or that driver offered? A lot of people feel like they are making a dramatic change by changing their shafts.

Not limited to shafts. Post a pic of the latest whatever and someone will want it. You didn't buy your Grenade because you just felt like it, you hoped for results right.

[Jakester23]

No i bought it because my driver was 4 years old and had a 430 cc head that's much less forgiving than a Game Improvement driver. I also like to support small business. Besides after doing research I've seen almost no measurable different from one club to the next. The SLDR is built on a completely different model than a GI driver so that was out for me. I liked the look of the grenade so I bought it. I didn't even hit one before I paid for it.

[saevel25]

PART 3!!! The comments keep bringing him back him back in!

I like how he describes that for a better player the variation is more in the equipment. Variations for higher handicappers is majority in the ball strike. These two are isolating the ball strike, so they can give you close what different shafts do actually contribute. Their experience matches what club makers have tested. So for them its about 200-300 rpm spin. That is all anybody should see going between extreme flex differences.

I agree with what Mark says, it really is all in the feel. If you get something that feels GOOD then go with it. You are better off getting the confidence boost then believing you need to be fitted into what ever criteria you think sit in. In golf there is no such thing.

[hallryu]

The game is expensive as it is. If people are swayed into buying expensive custom shafts then it's going to be even more expensive (for them). I've been following MC's videos for a while now and I'm inclined to believe him. For most of us strike is far more important than a shaft will ever be.

[motsco]

not sure where to go here, I'm higher HC. when trying new irons, I would be tested for swing speed, then 2 shafts would be optioned for the same head, 1st shaft fits my swing speed (R) ball would go streight left or a small leak right, the other (S) goes right, feels uncontrollable. I am no master ball striker I can have the shafts blindly changed with no knowledge of which one I'm hitting, after contact I know which is the stiff or the regular. my son has a 114 driver speed vs my 92 mph, if he uses my driver with regular shaft the ball will go left center strikes if I use his driver with stiff shaft ball can go streight and shorter or flop out to the right. my son, this year went and got a custom shaft in a weight he liked, after telling him there is no way he can feel the difference, he can, his SS has gone up and stayed up his carry is better. back to myself. if you give me a club that wouldn't bend or whip for me, there is no chance I'm going to get my distance or shape I want. I'm kind of confused how a shaft dosnt matter? I have a mettle tipped driver shaft that I can't get in the air further then 150 on my driver head. last year me and my 2HC buddy are at the range, at the time we where gaming the same drivers. mine 10.5 r. his 10.5s. when he went to the rest room I switched our drivers only because he was telling me how he could hit any driver the same way no matter what set up it had, he still hit it longish with my driver but couldn't get controll of the ball flight. I am a believer in what I call whip factor no matter how you swing. you create a whip factor, and I believe the shaft has a lot to be considered . back in the old days when shafts weren't even a huge factor I'm sure players adapted to what they had. this day and age I think shafts are softer then advertised. that's part of juicing the market. I could be wrong. whip point, could be why higher SS people go for after market shafts.

[vangator]

Just watched Feherty with Lanny Wadkins. He was playing with Tom Watson who was hitting his driver all over the place. He told him that his driver shaft was too flexible. He let Tom borrow his backup driver and Tom won 8 majors with it. I bet they believe shaft flex makes a difference.

[saevel25]

Just watched Feherty with Lanny Wadkins. He was playing with Tom Watson who was hitting his driver all over the place. He told him that his driver shaft was too flexible. He let Tom borrow his backup driver and Tom won 8 majors with it. I bet they believe shaft flex makes a difference.

Could be a feel thing, not a numbers thing. The point again is, in the numbers, which are MEASURED, there is no significant performance difference. There is no way to measure how a golf club personally feels to the golfer. If you hit a club that feels horrible, and have no confidence with, then don't use it. Your statement doesn't prove the point that there is a significant NUMERICAL difference in performance with golf shafts and flex. You are basically saying the same thing Mark is saying, get fitted and use a club you are comfortable with

[motsco]

not sure what you are saying. if say (example) the r1 driver head fits my eye, then I go try it and can't hit it, then the sales man changes the shaft and I can hit it I should still move away from buying it? this topic is misleading to many handicaps. if shafts don't matter, even after market shafts, why would a fitter ever measure our swing speed? ok sure loft lie swing speed needs to set us in to a club. but what if I lift my left left elbow a fraction after impact?. why was lead tape invented for clubs? I'm not attacking, cut the shaft of your club and see how you do. now add the shaft to your club and adjust it to how you swing. see how you do. I'm sure those PGA fitting vans have many shaft options in them day to day week to week. why would they need so many shafts? I just thought of something, is thread shaft flex doesn't matter for distance? or controll? [quote name="saevel25" url="/t/76118/shaft-flex-doesnt-matter-mark-crossfield/30#post_1031748"] Could be a feel thing, not a numbers thing. The point again is, in the numbers, which are MEASURED, there is no significant performance difference. There is no way to measure how a golf club personally feels to the golfer. If you hit a club that feels horrible, and have no confidence with, then don't use it. Your statement doesn't prove the point that there is a significant NUMERICAL difference in performance with golf shafts and flex. You are basically saying the same thing Mark is saying, get fitted and use a club you are comfortable with [/quote]

[saevel25]

Quote:

Originally Posted by motsco

not sure what you are saying.

if say (example) the r1 driver head fits my eye, then I go try it and can't hit it, then the sales man changes the shaft and I can hit it I should still move away from buying it?

Nope, why should you move away from something that you like and then can hit if the person changes the shaft? The main point is the shaft itself when isolated from the human element are not that much different. If you were to put a shaft in the Robot hitting machines, the numbers they produce would be very similar. So much that differences between flex are minimal at best. The point is that if changing a shaft, makes you like how the the club FEELS when you swing, that is more important. Basically it is finding something that works for you.

Quote:

if shafts don't matter, even after market shafts, why would a fitter ever measure our swing speed, why would they check our lie? ok sure loft lie swing speed needs to set us in to a club. but what if I lift my left arm a fraction after impact. why was lead tape invented for clubs?

I'm not attacking,

cut the shat of your club and see how you do. now add the shaft to your club and adjust it to how you swing. see how you do.

I'm sure those PGA fitting vans have many shaft options in them day to day week to week.
why would they need so many shafts?

No clue why you are talking about lead tape, or why you are talking about your left arm?

Never said you were attacking.

Of course they have many shaft options, there are many different players they need to accomidate. They each might go through 4-5 different shafts to find a right one. Heck they might try 5 of the same shaft, just because the feel might vary between the same flex and model. Pros are looking for an exact feel, and the vans need a lot of options to hope to find the right one.

Heck even Mark in the videos said that they talked to the Callaway club makers and they said there is no significant difference in shafts when swung by a robot. All that matters is how the shaft FEELS for the golfer, and how that shaft performs for the golfer. This being said, fitting is a fluid process that changes from golfer to golfer. That is why it is all trial and error.

[oregongolfguy]

I think that I agree in that ball striking ability, shaft length and shaft weight make a much bigger difference then shaft flex.  Having said that I think shaft flex or flex profile can play a pretty big role as well.  I only watched the first video, but it would be interesting to see a graph of the flex profile of the tp speeder in s and x.  It is quite possible, especially in a made for shaft, that there may not be much of a difference because they were manufactured to have not much of a difference...