A Rules Question about Missing Tee Markers

[Mark141]

I often play my course earlier in the morning the the tees are being mowed are the wooden tee markers are removed.  Without tee markets I play from the embedded tee tile markers.  Here's my nit-picking question:  Using the embedded tee marker to define my tee box, I know I can go two clubs back, but can I go all the way across the tee, or should I limit the the distance to the typical width of a tee marker.  Some of tee boxes have uneven lies, and going all away across provides a flatter teeing area.  However, as I post these score I want to keep it in the rules.

Thanks.

[bubble]

I dont beleive there is a standard width for tee boxes. so you could have full width.

however I'm familiar with your situation ? If the tees are mouved then they putt in a place you should play from not ?

[Mark141]

The wooden tee markers in the morning are out, and all I have to go on are the permanent, round, embedded tee markers on one side of the box used for calibrating distances from various tees.

[Fourputt]

I often play my course earlier in the morning the the tees are being mowed are the wooden tee markers are removed.  Without tee markets I play from the embedded tee tile markers.  Here's my nit-picking question:  Using the embedded tee marker to define my tee box, I know I can go two clubs back, but can I go all the way across the tee, or should I limit the the distance to the typical width of a tee marker.  Some of tee boxes have uneven lies, and going all away across provides a flatter teeing area.  However, as I post these score I want to keep it in the rules.

Thanks.

There is no correct answer under the rules, because the teeing ground is defined by the placement of two markers.  When there is only one marker, there cannot really be a "teeing ground" under the rules.

11-4b/2

Competitors Estimate Area of Teeing Ground When One Tee-Marker Missing

Q.In stroke play, competitors in a group, finding one tee-marker missing from a teeing ground, determine for themselves the area of the teeing ground based on the position of the remaining tee-marker and the shape of the tee. What is the ruling?

A.The correct procedure is to discontinue play until the Committee resolves the problem.

However, if the Committee is satisfied that the competitors did not gain an advantage by playing from the place they judged to be the teeing ground, it would be appropriate for the Committee, in equity (Rule 1-4), to accept their scores, without penalty. Otherwise, they incur the penalty prescribed in Rule11-4b.

and

11-4b/3

Competitors Determine Spot from Which to Play from Tee When Both Tee-Markers Are Missing

Q.In stroke play, the competitors in a group, finding no tee-markers on a particular hole, determine for themselves the spot from which to begin play on the hole, and tee off. What is the ruling?

A.It would be appropriate for the Committee to accept without penalty the scores of the competitors in question if there was evidence as to where the tee-markers were intended to be and the competitors determined the teeing ground from such evidence and played from within such teeing ground. Sufficient evidence might include spots of paint established to show where the tee-markers were to be installed or, if the tee-markers were removed during a round, depressions or other marks on the ground indicating where the tee-markers had been located.

In the absence of such evidence, the competitors should be disqualified under Rule 11-4b unless, before playing from the next tee, they discontinue play, get the Committee to establish tee-markers and replay the hole from within the established teeing ground. Any competitor so replaying would incur a penalty of two strokes (Rule 11-4b).

I realize that you are not talking about a competition, but this is essentially how the rules treat missing tee markers.  There can be no teeing ground if one or both of the markers are missing.

[bkuehn1952]

You are not playing a competition.  There is no tournament commitee or likely anyone in a postion to make a decision.  Your approach (teeing up at the marker)  offers a reasonable approach and you should be good to post scores to your handicap, claim a hole-in-one, etc...  Presumably the tees are not extremely wide and using one edge versus another offers no marked advantage.  If that is not the case, you might just use the center of the tee for every hole to be consistent.

Is this right out of the Rule Book?  No way.  Just my personal imprimatur on your approach.

[David in FL]

In effect, when playing a casual round, your group functions as the committee. As long as you don't violate the rules of golf, you can make decisions for your group that are the responsibility of that committee.

[Club Rat]

The tee position should be set on a daily basis as per pin placement, which are rotated to maintain the course conditions.

When a pin is set near the front of the green, then the tees should be set at the appropriate distance (back further) to maintain the correct course distance/rating.

When these is a special event or tournament, then the course setup may vary. It is totally up to the discretion of staff or event director.

We have had a few problems with kids in the neighborhood over the past couple of years, who have been tossing makers into the ponds and native areas.

We were playing our club stroke play and the tees were missing and we called it in. Within two minutes the staff replaced the markers and we resumed play.

If it just been a casual round, we would have just played the stone markers.

Club Rat

[turtleback]

In effect, when playing a casual round, your group functions as the committee. As long as you don't violate the rules of golf, you can make decisions for your group that are the responsibility of that committee.

I just wanted to repeat your statement with a little emphasis.  Because there are going to be people who read this and think "Hey, we're the Committee - anything goes so long as we agree" while this committee, just as every other Committee, is still bound by the ROG.

[rogolf]

The tee position should be set on a daily basis as per pin placement, which are rotated to maintain the course conditions.

When a pin is set near the front of the green, then the tees should be set at the appropriate distance (back further) to maintain the correct course distance/rating.

When these is a special event or tournament, then the course setup may vary. It is totally up to the discretion of staff or event director.

We have had a few problems with kids in the neighborhood over the past couple of years, who have been tossing makers into the ponds and native areas.

We were playing our club stroke play and the tees were missing and we called it in. Within two minutes the staff replaced the markers and we resumed play.

If it just been a casual round, we would have just played the stone markers.

Club Rat

I disagree that the tee markers for each hole should be set based on pin position for that hole.  For handicapping purposes, it is not necessary that each hole play to its "rated" length, but that the course (total of all holes) plays to near its rated length.  When courses use a rotation of front, center and back hole locations, the average is "center".  Therefore it's only where the tee markers are placed with respect to the permanent yardage markers that is important.

It's all in the USGA handicap manual.

[Club Rat]

I disagree that the tee markers for each hole should be set based on pin position for that hole.  For handicapping purposes, it is not necessary that each hole play to its "rated" length, but that the course (total of all holes) plays to near its rated length.  When courses use a rotation of front, center and back hole locations, the average is "center".  Therefore it's only where the tee markers are placed with respect to the permanent yardage markers that is important.

It's all in the USGA handicap manual.

Ok, I'll revise my statement and give a direct quote from the USGA.

It's lengthy, but worth the read for those interested.

Club Rat

Section 15 COURSE SET-UP

Definitions

Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.

15-1. Keeping Course Difficulty Constant

A golf course is rated on its effective playing length and its playing difficulty under normal conditions. Each hole may be evaluated in determining the course setup from a distance standpoint in order to provide a fair test and to require a player to use most or all clubs during a round. If the length or normal playing difficulty changes materially, a Handicap Index will be distorted. A difference of 22 yards for men or 18 yards for women will change the USGA course rating 0.1 of a stroke. The Handicap Committee should seek the cooperation of the Green Committee in maintaining both length and normal playing difficulty at a constant and fair level.

15-2. Balancing Placement of Tees

Placement of tee markers should be balanced so that the course's effective playing length is approximately the same from day to day. Adjustment may be made to allow for weather and turf conditions.

The "teeing ground" is defined In "The Rules of Golf" as a rectangular area two club-lengths in depth, the front and the sides of which are defined by the outside limits of two tee markers. In view of this definition, the tee markers must always be at least two club-lengths forward of the back edge of the teeing ground.

In the illustration below, the total area represents the usual teeing ground, and the heavy line in the center indicates the point of the permanent marker from which the hole was measured.

Balance tee placement as follows:

a. Normal conditions

Place tee markers on odd-numbered holes on front half in area A (or B or C); on even numbered holes, place tee markers on back half of same-lettered area. When changing tee markers, place odd-hole markers on back half and even-hole markers on front half. In other words, alternate between the halves and rotate among lettered areas, always using areas of the same letter at the same time, except under conditions outlined below.

b. Abnormal conditions

Use rear areas for a fast course and forward areas for a slow course. For example, when the course is hard and fast, place front-half markers in A and back-half markers in C. When the course is soft and slow, place front-half markers in C and back-half markers in A.

Under extreme conditions, all markers should be placed in the back half or the front half of all tees, depending upon what is necessary to try to achieve normal playing distance.

The above recommendation should be followed for each set of tee markers.

15-3. Hole Locations

Many factors affect the selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in selecting hole locations.

Following are specific points:

(i) Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the putting green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, condition of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the putting green.

(ii) There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole may be located deeper in the green and farther from its sides than may be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot.

In any case, it is recommended that the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the putting green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch.

Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the putting green.

(iii) An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.

(iv) Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs that have not completely healed.

(v) Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the putting green.

(vi) There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front, and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with the resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.

(vii) For a competition played over several days, the course should be kept in balance daily as to degree of difficulty. In a stroke play competition, the first hole of the first round is as important as the last hole of the last round, so the course should not be set up appreciably more difficult for any round - balanced treatment is the aim. An old concept of making the course progressively harder round after round is fallacious.

Please consult the USGA publication "How to Conduct a Competition" for further reference.

15-4. Preparing the Course

The location of the tee markers should take into consideration both length and the various obstacles of the hole in order to provide a consistent and fair test that accurately reflects the USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating .

The various obstacles should be maintained in a manner that is similar to how they were rated, consistent with the principles of Section 15-1 .

Please consult the USGA Publication "How to Conduct a Competition" for further reference.

15-5. Marking the Course

It is extremely important for the committee in charge of the competition or in charge of the course to ensure that the course has been properly and completely marked. It is difficult to play under the Rules of Golf on an unmarked golf course, and the USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating is based on the course being properly marked. If all boundaries, water hazards, and ground under repair have been properly marked, the committee will have few problems during the golf season.

[rogolf]

Ok, I'll revise my statement and give a direct quote from the USGA.

It's lengthy, but worth the read for those interested.

Club Rat

As I said previously, and your post confirms, it's the "course length" that is important, not the individual hole length.  The USGA don't say to place tee markers at the back of the tee box when the hole is cut on the front of the green.

For example, members don't want to have all the holes play the same length every day - a variety is much preferred.

[David in FL]

I just wanted to repeat your statement with a little emphasis.  Because there are going to be people who read this and think "Hey, we're the Committee - anything goes so long as we agree" while this committee, just as every other Committee, is still bound by the ROG.

Yep.

Both Rule 33 and Appendix I pertain.....

33-1 . Conditions; Waiving Rule

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

33-8 . Local Rules

a . Policy

The Committee may establish Local Rules for local abnormal conditions if they are consistent with the policy set forth in Appendix I.

b . Waiving or Modifying a Rule

A Rule of Golf must not be waived by a Local Rule. However, if a Committee considers that local abnormal conditions interfere with the proper playing of the game to the extent that it is necessary to make a Local Rule that modifies the Rules of Golf, the Local Rule must be authorized by the USGA.

[Club Rat]

One pet peeve.

Most courses nowadays have multiple tees for the golfers to select from. (not my peeve yet, so don't get excited)

We have our Mens Game and players choose which tees to play.

Many times I will notice, on the back tees, the markers are placed well in front of the stone markers and the middle tees would be placed near the back of the tee box on several holes!

This equates to sometimes a 40 to 60 yard variances on these holes, usually creating a longer hole for the middle tees and a shorter for the back tees.

One would think all tee markers be set the same positioning from stone markers on all tee boxes. (Gold, Black, Blue and White as an example)

Club Rat

[rogolf]

One pet peeve.

Most courses nowadays have multiple tees for the golfers to select from. (not my peeve yet, so don't get excited)

We have our Mens Game and players choose which tees to play.

Many times I will notice, on the back tees, the markers are placed well in front of the stone markers and the middle tees would be placed near the back of the tee box on several holes!

This equates to sometimes a 40 to 60 yard variances on these holes, usually creating a longer hole for the middle tees and a shorter for the back tees.

One would think all tee markers be set the same positioning from stone markers on all tee boxes. (Gold, Black, Blue and White as an example)

Club Rat

Not necessary to have them all positioned in relation to the stone markers, so long as the total course yardage is at/near the rated length.  Think of it this way - if the white tee markers on hole no. 1 are 5 yards in front of the stone markers, it's a minus 5; on hole two the white markers are 15 yards behind the stone marker, that's a plus 15.  Total to date is plus 10.  Do that for all eighteen holes and if the sum is near zero, the course is playing to its rated length.  Same applies for all other tee sets.

[iacas]

Not necessary to have them all positioned in relation to the stone markers, so long as the total course yardage is at/near the rated length.  Think of it this way - if the white tee markers on hole no. 1 are 5 yards in front of the stone markers, it's a minus 5; on hole two the white markers are 15 yards behind the stone marker, that's a plus 15.  Total to date is plus 10.  Do that for all eighteen holes and if the sum is near zero, the course is playing to its rated length.  Same applies for all other tee sets.

Not to mention that even if every hole was 5 yards shorter it really wouldn't do much at all to affect the rating or slope. It's really only ever when tee markers are put on the wrong teeboxes that the rating and slope can change a little.

[rogolf]

Not to mention that even if every hole was 5 yards shorter it really wouldn't do much at all to affect the rating or slope.

It's really only ever when tee markers are put on the wrong teeboxes that the rating and slope can change a little.

A quote from the post above from the USGA handicap manual:

A difference of 22 yards for men or 18 yards for women will change the USGA course rating 0.1 of a stroke.

Five yards short on every hole is 90 yards short in total, and the course rating for those tees would be 0.4 low for men, 0.5 low for women - that's significant in my opinion.  If you play the course set up like that every day, your handicap will be artificially low, since you're playing a course with a lower rating than the correct rating.

[iacas]

A quote from the post above from the USGA handicap manual:

A difference of 22 yards for men or 18 yards for women will change the USGA course rating 0.1 of a stroke.

Five yards short on every hole is 90 yards short in total, and the course rating for those tees would be 0.4 low for men, 0.5 low for women - that's significant in my opinion.  If you play the course set up like that every day, your handicap will be artificially low, since you're playing a course with a lower rating than the correct rating.

I rate courses. That falls within my definition of "wouldn't do much to affect the course rating," especially given how rare it would be for EVERY hole to be five yards off (except at courses that use the wrong tee boxes). As you know, many other factors come into play: the location of hazards, rise/drop, tightness of tree lines (and density), depth of bunkers, transition zones, elevation changes, etc.

Furthermore, many courses regularly fluctuate 22 yards or more on a daily basis. Sometimes they're to the advantage, other times to the disadvantage. Play enough and it evens out, again, so long as the proper tee boxes are used all or nearly all of the time.

[rogolf]

I rate courses. That falls within my definition of "wouldn't do much to affect the course rating," especially given how rare it would be for EVERY hole to be five yards off (except at courses that use the wrong tee boxes). As you know, many other factors come into play: the location of hazards, rise/drop, tightness of tree lines (and density), depth of bunkers, transition zones, elevation changes, etc.

Furthermore, many courses regularly fluctuate 22 yards or more on a daily basis. Sometimes they're to the advantage, other times to the disadvantage. Play enough and it evens out, again, so long as the proper tee boxes are used all or nearly all of the time.

Yes, I have also rated courses using the USGA system, and, imo, 90 yards short is significant.  It can be equalized by being 90 yards long the next day, but do courses really keep track of such settings?  I doubt it very much.  It's very frustrating when the white tees (example only) are consistently set up short, often in a foolhardy attempt to improve pace of play (people are responsible for slow play, course set up won't improve it to any great extent).  Those who play this shortened course consistently then end up with lower indexes than their capability and complain when players from other courses consistently whup them in net events.  For handicap indexes to truly reflect the player's capability, the courses must be set up to average the rated length over a relatively short period of time (maybe every week).