Placing ball on a sloping green

[iacas]

It's fairness under the rules that allow for certain exceptions to the core rule of 'play it as it lies'...the rule is the rule whether it helps or hurts you, yes?

Equity has a very strict definition in the Rules of Golf. It does not mean "fair." It means "treat like alike."

As far as the 'rub of the green' term, I think it was correctly applied in the context of the idea I was trying to communicate

Which as you now know also has a strict definition in the Rules of Golf.

This is the Rules forum. We try to use the definitions provided in the Rules here.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Just a couple of things.  Here's the definition of Rub of the Green.

Rub of the Green

A “rub of the green’’ occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

Also, a ball embedded on the green is a ball sitting in its own pitch mark.  Under the rules (R16-1c) the ball would be marked, lifted, the pitch mark repaired, and the ball would be replaced. (no dropping)  An exception would be if it's a wrong putting green, which is considered Though the Green.  The embedded ball rule (R25-3) covers areas Through the Green. (Closely mown areas only or rough by local rule.)

Through the Green

“Through the green’’ is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and

b. All hazards on the course

I would also add, that as far as "core principles" go,  "play the ball as it lies" is probably at the top of the list.

Boy you really know the rules book! I was thinking of 'rub of the green' in the idiomatic sense: "That’s because rub of the green can mean either good or bad fortune in some sports event. You can think of it as being accompanied by a shrug. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. No accounting for how things turn out," likely originating from this application: "Whatever happens to a Ball by accident, must be reckoned a Rub of the green. - Regulations of the Game of Golf adopted by the St Andrews Society of Golfers, 1812." I did not know there was a specific rules definition, just that it was an idea associated with the game.

Sorry, I forgot the particular case of ball being placed on the green not dropped. Mentioning drop was my error. When so placed it's not allowed to roll at all, even within 2 club lengths then?

Yes, I know 'play it as it lies' is at the top - the rules could have stopped there (draconian) but didn't to account for potential inequity of certain circumstances.

Thanks for the info.

Just as an FYI, the "Definitions" section of the rule book should be read and understood before you even attempt to delve into the rules.  If you don't know how a specific word is defined as it is used in the rules it's very easy to misinterpret a rule or procedure.

For instance, the term "opponent" is one of the most misused words in golf.  If you are playing stroke play you do not have an opponent.....ever!  When playing stroke play, you have competitors (the entire field outside of your group) and fellow competitors (the other players within your group).

In golf, an opponent only exists in match play, and your opponent is the player or partners you are playing against in the match.

The fastest way to confuse a discussion on the rules is to misuse this word, since in a great many cases, the rules for match play are different from those for stroke play.  In most cases if you breach a rule in match play, you immediately lose the hole and nothing that happens beyond that point matters until play is begun on the next hole.  In stroke play, you may have anything from a simple 2 stroke penalty to a fairly complex problem involving multiple breaches and having to figure out just how many strokes are to be applied and under what rules.

Without knowing the definitions you can't possibly understand what the rules are trying to accomplish.

[natureboy]

Just as an FYI, the "Definitions" section of the rule book should be read and understood before you even attempt to delve into the rules.  If you don't know how a specific word is defined as it is used in the rules it's very easy to misinterpret a rule or procedure.

For instance, the term "opponent" is one of the most misused words in golf.  If you are playing stroke play you do not have an opponent.....ever!  When playing stroke play, you have competitors (the entire field outside of your group) and fellow competitors (the other players within your group).

In golf, an opponent only exists in match play, and your opponent is the player or partners you are playing against in the match.

The fastest way to confuse a discussion on the rules is to misuse this word, since in a great many cases, the rules for match play are different from those for stroke play.  In most cases if you breach a rule in match play, you immediately lose the hole and nothing that happens beyond that point matters until play is begun on the next hole.  In stroke play, you may have anything from a simple 2 stroke penalty to a fairly complex problem involving multiple breaches and having to figure out just how many strokes are to be applied and under what rules.

Without knowing the definitions you can't possibly understand what the rules are trying to accomplish.

Thank you. That's another helpful clarification for any future reading of rules. My earlier point about the terms I misused 'per the rules' was that they seemed to me that they were solely 'plain language' idioms that were more about the game. It was a surprise that they had special / particular meaning under the rules.

Am I misinformed of the etiquette of the rules forum. Are we supposed to just submit questions for the experts and sit back and wait for a ruling, or are we encouraged to join the discussion even in occasional ignorance and thereby learn things a little bit more deeply?

[Rulesman]

Am I misinformed of the etiquette of the rules forum. Are we supposed to just submit questions for the experts and sit back and wait for a ruling, or are we encouraged to join the discussion even in occasional ignorance and thereby learn things a little bit more deeply?

I sincerely hope the latter.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Just as an FYI, the "Definitions" section of the rule book should be read and understood before you even attempt to delve into the rules.  If you don't know how a specific word is defined as it is used in the rules it's very easy to misinterpret a rule or procedure.

For instance, the term "opponent" is one of the most misused words in golf.  If you are playing stroke play you do not have an opponent.....ever!  When playing stroke play, you have competitors (the entire field outside of your group) and fellow competitors (the other players within your group).

In golf, an opponent only exists in match play, and your opponent is the player or partners you are playing against in the match.

The fastest way to confuse a discussion on the rules is to misuse this word, since in a great many cases, the rules for match play are different from those for stroke play.  In most cases if you breach a rule in match play, you immediately lose the hole and nothing that happens beyond that point matters until play is begun on the next hole.  In stroke play, you may have anything from a simple 2 stroke penalty to a fairly complex problem involving multiple breaches and having to figure out just how many strokes are to be applied and under what rules.

Without knowing the definitions you can't possibly understand what the rules are trying to accomplish.

Thank you. That's another helpful clarification for any future reading of rules. My earlier point about the terms I misused 'per the rules' was that they seemed to me that they were solely 'plain language' idioms that were more about the game. It was a surprise that they had special / particular meaning under the rules.

Am I misinformed of the etiquette of the rules forum. Are we supposed to just submit questions for the experts and sit back and wait for a ruling, or are we encouraged to join the discussion even in occasional ignorance and thereby learn things a little bit more deeply?

No, all of the forums are intended for discussion.  When you are uncertain, mention that uncertainty in your comment and someone will probably be along to either uphold your contention or to offer a correction.  Discussion is how we learn, and it is very strongly encouraged.

Even the "experts" make mistakes.  A few years ago in the US Open, Ernie Els was given a drop for line of sight relief from what the official saw as a temporary immovable obstruction.  In reality it was a mobile crane which was easily moved.  Els received a favorable drop in trampled grass, whereas he should have been required to play the from terrible lie that his drive left him with.

[turtleback]

Am I misinformed of the etiquette of the rules forum. Are we supposed to just submit questions for the experts and sit back and wait for a ruling, or are we encouraged to join the discussion even in occasional ignorance and thereby learn things a little bit more deeply?

The latter.  And isn't that just what happened here?  You joined in the discussion and in addition to learning about placing the ball on a slope you learned something about the importance of using terms according to their definitions when discussing the rules of golf - which may seem like a small point but it is one that will definitely deepen your understanding of the rules as well as make communication about the rules smoother, since there is a shared understanding of what terms mean.  Any specialized arena will have its own specialized language, which may include common words which are imbued with specific technical meanings, i.e.,"terms of art".  It is hard for the rules to be comprehensive without also being somewhat technical, which means our thinking needs to be technical in order to grasp them - especially the less common situations.

So stick around, ask question, enter the discussions.  Don't be afraid of saying something wrong - someone will correct it.  Done there, been corrected.  Basic good will is all anyone expects.   And you seem to have plenty of that.

IMO