Proximity to the Hole (Prior to the Shot)

[iacas]

What type of shot did you hit, pitch with the 8, or a low-powered standard swing, or something else?

I'd probably hit a long chip shot. It's not really the topic of this thread, though, so…

[RandallT]

So I geeked out and plotted the proximity to the hole after approaches from various ranges (http://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html). I used PGA Tour 2014 season.

I only graphed the "50 percentile" columns for comparisons above, but you also can see data in the charts for the best, the worst and each increment of 25 percentile. The PGA tour used ranges like 100-125yds, so I simply used the midpoint in the spreadsheet (like 112.5 above).

What surprised me was that at the PGA Tour level, the rough appears way more penal than at the muni's I play.  If I'm reading the graph correctly at the top:

A 50percentile PGA tour pro can hit approximately a 30ft proximity shot from 175 yards from the fairway, on average. BUT..

A 50percentile PGA tour pro can hit approximately a 30ft proximity shot from 112.5 yards from the rough.

For the same proximity on the graph above, the distance difference between rough and fairway shots is the width between the blue and green lines.  That is much further than I would've guessed for an entire season's statistics. A US Open type setup, sure, but aren't there a lot of events where the rough is not so penal?

I don't think our local courses here would show this type of difference. If they did, wouldn't this tend to support the folks who say they'd rather be 175 in the fairway than 150 in the rough?  I'm a bit at a loss, because I expected the PGA stats to show something different.

[iacas]

What surprised me was that at the PGA Tour level, the rough appears way more penal than at the muni's I play.

Does that really surprise you? That the rough is thicker, etc. on the PGA Tour?

Plus, what you're not seeing is where pros are aiming. From the fairway, they may be taking on a more aggressive line. They may hit their targets almost as well from the rough but, because they can't rely on as much spin to stop the ball, their targets have to account for more roll, so they play away from the flag and a bit more to the center of the green.

Additionally, pros take about 2 putts over a fairly wide range of distances (1.8 from 15 feet, 2.08 from 35 feet).

[Abu3baid]

Does that really surprise you? That the rough is thicker, etc. on the PGA Tour? Plus, what you're not seeing is where pros are aiming. From the fairway, they may be taking on a more aggressive line. They may hit their targets almost as well from the rough but, because they can't rely on as much spin to stop the ball, their targets have to account for more roll, so they play away from the flag and a bit more to the center of the green. Additionally, pros take about 2 putts over a fairly wide range of distances (1.8 from 15 feet, 2.08 from 35 feet).

Does that mean for a tour pro it really is better for him to take it down a notch if it means he will be 20 yards shorter but in the fairway? Especially if as you say the rough makes it more difficult to put a stop to the ball and he can get much closer to the flag on average since he doesn't have to "play away" as you put it. I'm assuming that will mean that for amatures the first thing we should do is look at how rough the rough is and then make a decision from there rather than just blasting away regardless of the conditions? Interesting info @RandallT thanks for sharing

[RandallT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandallT

What surprised me was that at the PGA Tour level, the rough appears way more penal than at the muni's I play

Does that really surprise you? That the rough is thicker, etc. on the PGA Tour?

Plus, what you're not seeing is where pros are aiming. From the fairway, they may be taking on a more aggressive line. They may hit their targets almost as well from the rough but, because they can't rely on as much spin to stop the ball, their targets have to account for more roll, so they play away from the flag and a bit more to the center of the green.

Additionally, pros take about 2 putts over a fairly wide range of distances (1.8 from 15 feet, 2.08 from 35 feet).

The surprise, to me, was just in the magnitude. I do realize my courses are slightly easier than theirs .  Actually, when I play some nice country clubs around here, I realize how easy my typical rough is! I've also improved quite a bit at the end of the season by driving longer into the rough than playing it shorter with a hybrid/iron off the tee, thanks to LSW! So the surprise was in the magnitude of the difference. Rough guess (no pun intended)- there's a 50yard mismatch in the pros from the fairway and the rough, to match the same proximity to the hole.

I think your reply gave me an aha moment by bringing up where the pros are aiming. I wasn't really keeping that in mind, and I had it in my head that every shot plotted was aiming at the flag. Duh, and I've read LSW! That simple thought definitely changes how I'd interpret all of this.

[iacas]

Does that mean for a tour pro it really is better for him to take it down a notch if it means he will be 20 yards shorter but in the fairway?

Obviously.

But that doesn't mean accuracy is more important than distance, because… PGA Tour pros who hit it 20 yards farther don't miss every fairway, nor would they hit every fairway with 20 fewer yards and whatever accuracy that gave them.

The numbers are still: 0.8 strokes saved for either a 7.5% increase in distance (20 yards) versus a 28% increase in accuracy (3.5° to 2.5°).

I'm assuming that will mean that for amatures the first thing we should do is look at how rough the rough is and then make a decision from there rather than just blasting away regardless of the conditions?

Just figure out what shade of grey the rough is. On the PGA Tour, it's well into the middle/dark ranges on some courses. On your courses, they're awfully light most of the time.

The surprise, to me, was just in the magnitude. I do realize my courses are slightly easier than theirs .  Actually, when I play some nice country clubs around here, I realize how easy my typical rough is! I've also improved quite a bit at the end of the season by driving longer into the rough than playing it shorter with a hybrid/iron off the tee, thanks to LSW! So the surprise was in the magnitude of the difference. Rough guess (no pun intended)- there's a 50yard mismatch in the pros from the fairway and the rough, to match the same proximity to the hole.

I think your reply gave me an aha moment by bringing up where the pros are aiming. I wasn't really keeping that in mind, and I had it in my head that every shot plotted was aiming at the flag. Duh, and I've read LSW! That simple thought definitely changes how I'd interpret all of this.

Indeed.

The rough at the Memorial tournament, FWIW, is often about 6-8 inches… on Wednesday.

[RandallT]

Indeed.

The rough at the Memorial tournament, FWIW, is often about 6-8 inches… on Wednesday.

I also meant to mention in my last reply to you that the aha moment you gave made me think that for some of the shots from the rough, the player may have been simply punching out to the fairway.  When the stats are generated, it is quite possible that it is not exclusively when the player is shooting for the green.

For example, if a player hits it fairly close from the rough 9 times out of 10, but then one time, he punches out to the fairway, then his proximity to the hole numbers probably get all screwed up. As far as the stats show, he had 10 shots from the rough and it adds the total proximity and divides by 10.  If they don't filter out shots from the rough where the player has no shot at the green at all (and I don't know how they COULD filter those out), those outliers (layup shots) will do big damage to the average.

[billchao]

The surprise, to me, was just in the magnitude. I do realize my courses are slightly easier than theirs .

The closest I ever got to playing a PGA Tour setup was several years ago, at Disney. The pro said they started setting up the course for the upcoming Children's Miracle Network Classic so the rough was grown out. To say it was challenging would be an understatement. I had to just hack the ball out sometimes with my SW just to make good contact.