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Interesting conversation on Twitterverse about wedges and bounce


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@ TrackmanMaestro @ AndrewRiceGolf Today I watched 2 elite college and a PGA tour player all launch the ball lower and with more spin....

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  1. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf not saying less bounce can't spin it. I just think across the board....all equal....more bounce is more spin.

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  2. Great conversation going on between @ TrackmanMaestro @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf right now. Check it out.

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  3. @ TrackmanMaestro @ AndrewRiceGolf this is what I saw with higher bounce wedges today. http://youtu.be/nfYA_ZdzZqk

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  4. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf Can we agree a soled wedge with a vertical hosel...more bounce raises the leading edge more off the ground?

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  5. @ TrackmanMaestro @ AndrewRiceGolf yes but hosel is almost never vertical in a wedge shot. Especially low spinners

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  6. @ TrackmanMaestro @ AndrewRiceGolf also depends where bounce is located. Trail bounce won't raise the leading edge

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  7. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf here's hosel location on spinner.... pic.twitter.com/50f8FSTkK8

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  8. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf here's hosel on floater.....BIG difference yes? pic.twitter.com/p2lQVQgL3h

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  9. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf I know camera isn't perfect and I tried to capture first contact. I think we can learn from these photos.

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  10. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf I know hosel isn't vertical, but raising leading edge helps promote low face strike. Agree?

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  11. @ TrackmanMaestro @ AndrewRiceGolf I want to think so. The floater seems to hit higher on the face though.

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  12. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf Jeff the photos SEEM to show MORE delofting on the floater! It seems the allows for higher face contact.

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  13. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf the floater DOES hit higher. Is that due to MORE HOSEL LEAN???? Damn I think it does!

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  14. @ TrackmanMaestro @ RadarGolfPro I would say that if the bounce affects the quality of the strike then it must alter spin rate.

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  15. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf less hosel lean, ie more loft, seems to promote lower face contact equalling more spin? Maybe? Possibly?

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  16. @ TrackmanMaestro @ RadarGolfPro Figuring shit out 140 characters at a time. Love it

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  17. @ AndrewRiceGolf @ TrackmanMaestro not enough friction to pull the launch down as well.

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  18. @ TrackmanMaestro @ AndrewRiceGolf we had 8 Vokey wedges on the range. 3 guys using diff techniques...all had lower launch higher spin....

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  19. @ TrackmanMaestro @ AndrewRiceGolf .... With the lowest bounce wedge 6*. All of their gamers had way more bounce.

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  20. @ RadarGolfPro @ AndrewRiceGolf most impressive short pitch: I've got Mike Weir...37 yards...7500 rpms.

https://twitter.com/RadarGolfPro/status/553440614423859200

Steve

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I don't get it.. I'm left wondering what are they trying to say? Then there is this one guy who says he is figuring things out 140 cha. at a time, I was like huh? @iacas is there a real take away from what they are going back and forth about? or should I just turn on my ignore filter to "real high"

:adams: / :tmade: / :edel: / :aimpoint: / :ecco: / :bushnell: / :gamegolf: / 

Eyad

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They're talking about two shots: the low spinning shot, and the higher, softer shot.

The low, spinning shot is understood to be hit almost a little thin. Hitting the ball thin adds vertical gear effect, which makes the ball launch lower and with more spin ("backspin"). It also comes off a bit faster.

So, Joe was saying that bounce raises the leading edge, leading to contact lower on the face, making the thin, low spinning shot easier.

They also talked about how if you pushed the handle forward, you'd reduce bounce, hit it higher on the face, and the shot - despite having less loft, would actually launch higher and with less spin.

To put that another way… because of vertical gear effect, you can launch a ball lower despite the hosel being closer to vertical and the delivered loft being higher than pushing the handle and thus the hosel forward more, resulting in less delivered loft but a higher launch because you're hitting the ball higher on the face.


Where I think Joe got it wrong was bounce playing a role in this. I don't think bounce is what causes a player to hit the shot a little thin to hit the low spinner. I think they're creating the launch and impact conditions of "a little low on the face," and the bounce is just there, contacting the ground at about the same time as the ball, not before it to push the leading edge up. After all, how much could the leading edge really be pushed up except on the firmest of firm conditions? The grass will absorb a few mm of metal, if you know what I mean.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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To put that another way… because of vertical gear effect, you can launch a ball lower despite the hosel being closer to vertical and the delivered loft being higher than pushing the handle and thus the hosel forward more, resulting in less delivered loft but a higher launch because you're hitting the ball higher on the face.

Interesting. I knew the low spinner wasn't hit with with a delofted clubface, but I didn't know the gear effect bit. I just always assumed it was just higher dynamic loft and a more negative AoA that produced more spin.

Bill

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Another difference between the two shots was that the 'thinner' level of the club through the ball with the low spinner put a lot less grass between the face and the ball. That could add to spin difference as well - but not sure if lower club speed with pitches makes the amount of grass less relevant.

Below are you tube links to the two shots.

Low spinner:

High floater:

Kevin

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Another difference between the two shots was that the 'thinner' level of the club through the ball with the low spinner put a lot less grass between the face and the ball. That could add to spin difference as well - but not sure if lower club speed with pitches makes the amount of grass less relevant. Below are you tube links to the two shots. Low spinner: High floater:

I don't think it's the grass affecting the spin, but the grass does illustrate the difference between the AoA in the two shots. What the videos show seems to be a combination of what @iacas and I said about the shots. Low spinner is visibly steeper (more negative) and struck lower on the face as a result of the descending blow. High floater is a more level swing with the clubhead gliding along the ground (thus kicking up all that grass), causing the ball to be struck slightly higher on the face. Thanks for sharing the videos.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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I don't think it's the grass affecting the spin, but the grass does illustrate the difference between the AoA in the two shots.

What the videos show seems to be a combination of what @iacas and I said about the shots.

Low spinner is visibly steeper (more negative) and struck lower on the face as a result of the descending blow.

High floater is a more level swing with the clubhead gliding along the ground (thus kicking up all that grass), causing the ball to be struck slightly higher on the face.

Thanks for sharing the videos.

I definitely see lower on the face for the low spinner. It's not as clear to me that they have significantly different AoA. I wish we could see the hosel on the low spinner, because it is clearly descending on the floater shot, so the leading edge has to be descending as well even though it's already obscured by grass. That to me says descending AoA as well. How much and relative difference between them - not sure.

I don't think it's as important as the vertical gear effect, but not sure relative difference in grass on club face isn't affecting spin at all . One one of the twitter conversation instructors, Andrew Rice has done some posts about how just a little amount of moisture or grass juice can reduce spin and I think also increase launch angle by measurable amounts.

Just found the link: http://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2013/02/wedges-and-water

Based on a re-read of that post - and assuming his test accurate describes average results - it's possible that the path of the high floater deeper in the grass moistens the club and the ball prior to contact relative to the 'clean' contact between club and ball with the 'thin' low spinner in addition to the difference in vertical gear effect. In fact if you look closely at the high floater, there is a considerably larger 'cushion' of grass bits that get shaved up onto the face right where the ball is going to contact. I don't think the grass is having zero effect.

Kevin

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I took some stills and compared. What I saw:

Shaft lean coming into impact is about the same, but the high shot has slightly more.

Both clubheads are initially descending, but the high shot hits a flat spot (the bounce?) prior to impact and stays roughly level for a bit (riding a cushion of grass?) so the AoA is shallower through impact.

Both clubs deflect down at impact pretty much the same amount. Impact is higher on the face of the high shot with significantly more grass between ball & face than low shot.

At post-impact separation, the low shot club head has continued to descend, while the high shot clubhead has risen (literally bounced?) a very small amount.

At post-impact separation, there appears to be a possible, but minute increase in shaft lean of the low shot, while the high shot could maybe have a minute decrease in shaft lean.

I would still vote for vertical gear effect being the primary difference (I'm not even sure the shaft lean change is there shortly after contacct), but the shallower AoA and the grass (possibly helping the ball slide higher on the face and contribute to spin reduction of the floater) may contribute.

Kevin

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