Pete's Programme (Single Digit to Tour Player)

[Nosevi]

Pete, there's no reason you can't have a flat left wrist and have the face pointing somewhere else. It depends not on the flatness of your wrist but where you've rotated the forearm(s). I could uncock my left wrist, put the clubhead down behind the ball, and point it 45° left or right of the target line.

That's not to say you need to do this, necessarily… just that a "flat left wrist" doesn't have as much to do with the clubface orientation as you seem to want to say.

Not really thought about it like this Erik but you're right. What I'm doing by cupping my wrist is changing the relationship between where the club face points and my forearm rather than where the club face has to point. There's nothing to say I can't rotate that forearm to point the club face wherever I want. I'm used to rotating my left forearm down into impact but I guess I can back that off if the flatter left wrist is something I should be trying to get.

Given the sort of numbers I'm getting (and a glance at my swing though I understand you'd probably need far better than a non-HD iphone vid DTL to say for sure) but would you say that flattening off my wrist at the top is something I should be pursuing? With an 8 iron as an example I'm launching the ball at about 20-21 degrees, sometimes a shade higher with a normal swing with an 8 iron, getting between 152 and 157 yards carry and spin is at about 7000rpm. Flattening the left wrist seems to add about 5 yards to the shot and I'm guessing that's through a slightly higher smash factor (ball speed is up with the same effort but can't record club head speed with my kit so that's a guess) and drops the trajectory a bit.

Do you think it's worth making this change now and accept a drop in accuracy for a bit?

This is awesome!  Finally something legitimate that we can actually root for!  I'm definitely rooting for you!

Thanks. It's very early days yet but we'll see how it goes. In 2 years time I'll let you know if it's looking legitimate or not

Got to dash, it's 0600 and I'm off to caddy for one of the pros I train with for a practice round of theirs. All useful in the grand scheme of understanding the game better (and she bullied me into it )

[MattM]

Thank you for posting your plans!  I'm curious to know.  When you say you saved up the money to be able to persue this full time.  What kind of money do you think would have to be set aside for a person to be able to do this?

[Nosevi]

Thank you for posting your plans!  I'm curious to know.  When you say you saved up the money to be able to persue this full time.  What kind of money do you think would have to be set aside for a person to be able to do this?

I think it depends slightly on where you are but essentially I'm in a position where I don't need to work for a few years (4 or 5) but that's through having an income rather than savings. From this income I contribute towards family expenses (my wife works as the depty head of an Elementary School), pay for coaching, membership of two golf clubs (one proper course, one cheap one in my village which I use more as a practice area) pay for golf balls etc. Truth is we took a hefty family pay cut for me to do this but it was my wife that said "Go for it. If you don't you'll always wonder if you could have done it!" She's my biggest fan, supporter and in a very real way my primary 'backer' too. Savings paid for custom fit clubs, the swing studio including the building it's in which was custom built to house it, money to see me through a season on the developmental tour I'm aiming for without the need to make a dime (tournament entry fees, hotel bills, travel expenses, etc) This amounts to about $15,000 as it's all in the UK so travel is by car. The plan for year 1 would be to break even (win as much as it costs to play) so essentially I still have that money available for year 2. If I don't break even or if I find myself in a position to move further up but have not attracted sponsorship (which no one owes me so I need to be able to do this without it even if there's a chance I could get it) I have a reserve fund which is substantially larger. I won't touch that unless I prove to myself that I have a legitimate shot at it though. I could tell you how much it all amounts to for me but essentially it'd be a sum that would be different for each of us - how much will it cost you to live while you train; what does the level of tour you're aiming at cost as sponsorship before getting there is massively unlikely; what will the step up to the next level cost as sponsorship may or may not be there and failing due to lack of funds having got that far would be soul destroying. It's really a case of sitting down and working it all out for your own personal circumstances :-)

[iacas]

Not really thought about it like this Erik but you're right. What I'm doing by cupping my wrist is changing the relationship between where the club face points and my forearm rather than where the club face has to point. There's nothing to say I can't rotate that forearm to point the club face wherever I want. I'm used to rotating my left forearm down into impact but I guess I can back that off if the flatter left wrist is something I should be trying to get.

Given the sort of numbers I'm getting (and a glance at my swing though I understand you'd probably need far better than a non-HD iphone vid DTL to say for sure) but would you say that flattening off my wrist at the top is something I should be pursuing? With an 8 iron as an example I'm launching the ball at about 20-21 degrees, sometimes a shade higher with a normal swing with an 8 iron, getting between 152 and 157 yards carry and spin is at about 7000rpm. Flattening the left wrist seems to add about 5 yards to the shot and I'm guessing that's through a slightly higher smash factor (ball speed is up with the same effort but can't record club head speed with my kit so that's a guess) and drops the trajectory a bit.

Do you think it's worth making this change now and accept a drop in accuracy for a bit?

Just being honest here… I haven't really looked. You've said you're working with other people so the last thing I tend to want to do is offer unsolicited opinions on what I think you should be doing.

I will say this, generally: good ball strikers (unless they have a strong grip or do something like Lee Westwood or Sadlowski with their left elbow) tend to have a relatively flat wrist into impact, and a little of the supination of the lead wrist/forearm, etc. Cupped and turning the face left generally isn't the better strategy.

But again, that's general - I have no idea how much you're doing anything, or if I'd worry about it.

What's your peak height like, btw? Around 30 yards with all clubs?

P.S. Since you're likely strong willed enough to say "nah, that makes no sense," post some good high-speed video of your swing and I'll tell you what I think.

[MacDutch]

Hi Pete, Again, thanks for posting, really interesting read. I was wandering if your handicap has dropped since you started this thread.

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Not really thought about it like this Erik but you're right. What I'm doing by cupping my wrist is changing the relationship between where the club face points and my forearm rather than where the club face has to point. There's nothing to say I can't rotate that forearm to point the club face wherever I want. I'm used to rotating my left forearm down into impact but I guess I can back that off if the flatter left wrist is something I should be trying to get.

Given the sort of numbers I'm getting (and a glance at my swing though I understand you'd probably need far better than a non-HD iphone vid DTL to say for sure) but would you say that flattening off my wrist at the top is something I should be pursuing? With an 8 iron as an example I'm launching the ball at about 20-21 degrees, sometimes a shade higher with a normal swing with an 8 iron, getting between 152 and 157 yards carry and spin is at about 7000rpm. Flattening the left wrist seems to add about 5 yards to the shot and I'm guessing that's through a slightly higher smash factor (ball speed is up with the same effort but can't record club head speed with my kit so that's a guess) and drops the trajectory a bit.

Do you think it's worth making this change now and accept a drop in accuracy for a bit?

Just being honest here… I haven't really looked. You've said you're working with other people so the last thing I tend to want to do is offer unsolicited opinions on what I think you should be doing.

I will say this, generally: good ball strikers (unless they have a strong grip or do something like Lee Westwood or Sadlowski with their left elbow) tend to have a relatively flat wrist into impact, and a little of the supination of the lead wrist/forearm, etc. Cupped and turning the face left generally isn't the better strategy.

But again, that's general - I have no idea how much you're doing anything, or if I'd worry about it.

What's your peak height like, btw? Around 30 yards with all clubs?

P.S. Since you're likely strong willed enough to say "nah, that makes no sense," post some good high-speed video of your swing and I'll tell you what I think.

No that makes sense to me, Erik. If I get any decent high speed video in the next few weeks I'll post it up so you can have a proper look.

I'm intrigued how you knew my peak height as I'm different to some other guys I play with but you've nailed it - about 30 yards. It creeps up as the clubs get longer but only by a little - it's not something I track but looking at a set I recorded recently I was 31 yards with pitching wedge, 32 yards with an 8 iron and 33 with a 6 iron. The only club where that is different is my driver where I'm more like 37 yards peak height. I'm using a Ping G30 dialled down to 8 degrees loft so not sure I can have less loft in my hands to get a lower ball flight. The ball is launching at about 14 degrees is that's a helpful number to know.

Can I ask why you asked about peak height? It's not something I've really looked into.

Hi Pete,

Again, thanks for posting, really interesting read. I was wandering if your handicap has dropped since you started this thread.

Hi there. The simple answer is nope but there is a longer answer

Over here our handicaps only drop in competition and then only if it's designated a 'qualifying competition'. This year was all about getting used to being in competition and being under a little pressure and the best way I thought of doing that was getting myself into my Club's team. My thinking was standing on a tee with 11 team mates watching and relying on you was a higher pressure than simply playing for yourself. The snag is all of the matches are pairs matchplay and none count towards handicap (in fact matchplay never counts towards handicap here, only stroke play ever does and even many stroke play competitions don't count). So the first half of the season (only rounds shot in the summer can count here as well as our winter tees aren't allowed for handicap...) was about playing a few matches for the club, the second half the plan is to get out in some individual competitions.

For the record I haven't had a lot of success in the matches (1/3 the wrong way) but while you win as a team and lose as a team I'd only say that has not been entirely my fault and I've actually played pretty well. That's all I'll say on that subject, but now it's on to individual competitions.

What I do track though is much closer to the US handicap system which is far more sensible than ours as it tracks your actual current ability. A while ago our Golf Union released a paper which showed what a handicapper at 5 or below should be averaging and being able to shoot compared to SSS (basically what we call course rating). They should be averaging 2 over their handicap (taking into consideration every round) and shooting on handicap or below between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 times out. My progression so far is:

Aug 2014 - Average 9 over SSS, shot 7 over SSS - 7 handicap level

Dec 2014 - Average 7 over SSS shot 5 over SSS - 5 handicap level

Apr 2015 - Average 5 over SSS shot 3 over SSS - 3 handicap level

So thus far my actual progression has been relatively linear but I'd expect that to shallow out at some stage and with individual competitions coming into the equation I'd expect my handicap to start dropping towards what I'm actually shooting.

[MacDutch]

Looks like a lot of progress in less then a year. Nice!

[iacas]

No that makes sense to me, Erik. If I get any decent high speed video in the next few weeks I'll post it up so you can have a proper look.

I'm intrigued how you knew my peak height as I'm different to some other guys I play with but you've nailed it - about 30 yards. It creeps up as the clubs get longer but only by a little - it's not something I track but looking at a set I recorded recently I was 31 yards with pitching wedge, 32 yards with an 8 iron and 33 with a 6 iron. The only club where that is different is my driver where I'm more like 37 yards peak height. I'm using a Ping G30 dialled down to 8 degrees loft so not sure I can have less loft in my hands to get a lower ball flight. The ball is launching at about 14 degrees is that's a helpful number to know.

Can I ask why you asked about peak height? It's not something I've really looked into.

Yours are a few yards higher than you'd want to see them, but not so much that I'd worry.

Peak height fits into launch angles, clubhead speed, the wrist conditions (AoA, shaft lean, when the inline condition is achieved), etc.

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Can I ask why you asked about peak height? It's not something I've really looked into.

Yours are a few yards higher than you'd want to see them, but not so much that I'd worry.

Peak height fits into launch angles, clubhead speed, the wrist conditions (AoA, shaft lean, when the inline condition is achieved), etc.

Thanks for the explanation. My trajectory has been slowly but steadily coming down and as I'm using the same clubs I'm guessing I'm steadily getting a fraction more shaft lean at impact which I'm guessing goes hand in hand with getting more 'inline'. I've got Brian (guy who plays on tour at the level I'm initially aiming at) coming over in a little under 2 1/2 hours for a joint session in the swing studio. Be interesting to see where he is in comparison.

[Nosevi]

Just a quick post that is more of a warning than about my game as such.

Yesterday I posted that I was off to caddy for Jess, one of the pros I practice with, for a 'practice round', something I've done before. Well I was slightly 'duped'. Just after I posted that I was off to caddy for her I received a cryptic message saying I wasn't 'required' till later on which was a shame as it was due to pour down with rain all afternoon. When I arrived and met her on the 1st tee I found her with 2 other girls from my club, one scratch and the other off 1 I believe. Having started at 4am they had just completed 4x 18 hole rounds back to back literally non-stop and had 3 to go, it was in aid of charity. Jess had run out of willing volunteers and wondered if I would caddy for her. She batted her eyelids at me and I gave in. Carried her bag for 54 holes mostly in torrential rain and finished up at about 9 O'clock in the evening.

The warning is beware of pretty blonde golf pros - underneath they are devious.

The 3 girls who played all the golf, the 3 caddies who did the last stint and the 'support staff' who handed out coffee as we passed the club house each time on the 18th (par 5 which Jess birdied...... again) 126 holes of golf and 17 hours after the girls started. Jess is in the black standing next to me.

[RandallT]

Just a quick post that is more of a warning than about my game as such.

Yesterday I posted that I was off to caddy for Jess, one of the pros I practice with, for a 'practice round', something I've done before. Well I was slightly 'duped'. Just after I posted that I was off to caddy for her I received a cryptic message saying I wasn't 'required' till later on which was a shame as it was due to pour down with rain all afternoon. When I arrived and met her on the 1st tee I found her with 2 other girls from my club, one scratch and the other off 1 I believe. Having started at 4am they had just completed 4x 18 hole rounds back to back literally non-stop and had 3 to go, it was in aid of charity. Jess had run out of willing volunteers and wondered if I would caddy for her. She batted her eyelids at me and I gave in. Carried her bag for 54 holes mostly in torrential rain and finished up at about 9 O'clock in the evening.

The warning is beware of pretty blonde golf pros - underneath they are devious.

The 3 girls who played all the golf, the 3 caddies who did the last stint and the 'support staff' who handed out coffee as we passed the club house each time on the 18th (par 5 which Jess birdied...... again) 126 holes of golf and 17 hours after the girls started. Jess is in the black standing next to me.

Sounds like a blast, Pete! Lovely gals, lots of golf, liquid sunshine. Well, it sounds like a good fitness program anyway. Programme, excuse me.

Edit: I'll assume the pic is pre-event. You all look happy, refreshed, and dry!

[Nosevi]

Sounds like a blast, Pete! Lovely gals, lots of golf, liquid sunshine. Well, it sounds like a good fitness program anyway. Programme, excuse me.

Edit: I'll assume the pic is pre-event. You all look happy, refreshed, and dry!

Nope. It stopped raining for the last few holes but trust me, my hat didn't start off looking like that!

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Can I ask why you asked about peak height? It's not something I've really looked into.

Yours are a few yards higher than you'd want to see them, but not so much that I'd worry.

Peak height fits into launch angles, clubhead speed, the wrist conditions (AoA, shaft lean, when the inline condition is achieved), etc.

Thanks for the explanation. My trajectory has been slowly but steadily coming down and as I'm using the same clubs I'm guessing I'm steadily getting a fraction more shaft lean at impact which I'm guessing goes hand in hand with getting more 'inline'. I've got Brian (guy who plays on tour at the level I'm initially aiming at) coming over in a little under 2 1/2 hours for a joint session in the swing studio. Be interesting to see where he is in comparison.

Spent a couple of hours in the swing studio with Brian and his peak height is generally a little lower than mine but not by much. Doesn't really climb a yard or two as you go to longer irons either and his driver is way lower. I think in still air I'd be pretty happy with my ball flight but in the wind I'd take his every time. All part of the learning process

[shalabe]

with a normal swing with an 8 iron, getting between 152 and 157 yards carry

@Nosevi - what a great thread, thank you for sharing your experience with the rest of us. I have a question if you don't mind. I have no real experience on a launch monitor and was surprised to see a five yard gap in your standard 8 iron swing. Are these yardage gaps due to slight misses (can you feel when the yardage will be on the low end or high end) or can you hit back-to-back stock 8 irons that feel the same but have a five yard gap? Just curious if it's something I should be aware of. Thanks

[Nosevi]

[quote name="Nosevi" url="/t/80287/petes-programme-single-digit-to-tour-player/180#post_1174441"] with a normal swing with an 8 iron, getting between 152 and 157 yards carry

@Nosevi - what a great thread, thank you for sharing your experience with the rest of us. I have a question if you don't mind. I have no real experience on a launch monitor and was surprised to see a five yard gap in your standard 8 iron swing. Are these yardage gaps due to slight misses (can you feel when the yardage will be on the low end or high end) or can you hit back-to-back stock 8 irons that feel the same but have a five yard gap? Just curious if it's something I should be aware of. Thanks[/quote] Hi there and thanks. Regarding the yardage I'm quoting it's not so much a gap as a dispersion circle. Some shots go a tad left, some a little right, some a shade high and some a little lower. All of that effects the overall distance of the shot carry. When a pro says "I ht my 8 iron 163" he's quoting his average distance rather than saying every shot he hits goes exactly that yardage. If you look at the Trackman Combine world record shot by Steven Tiley you can see that at every range there is a scatter of yardages. He describes 120 yards as a "go to" shot but there's still a long and a short end of his shots and in that case it's more that 5 yards. https://trackmanfilesus.blob.core.windows.net/publicfiles/fae95c85-87c9-4c6b-9970-fcf38b047c12/Combine%20Test%20for%20steven%20tiley%202013-10-11%20(2).pdf http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-combine-world-record/ No matter who you are this will be the case. I'd say it's definitely worth knowing what your long and short carry numbers are simply to know whether a front bunker for instance is in play if a pin is tucked just over it. In answer to the question can I feel it when it's going to be at the shorter or longer end of the spectrum for a shot the answer is yes, I've spent so long on a launch monitor you get used to what a better strike feels like compared to an 'ok' strike. Although I'm not sure how useful that is - the ball's on it's way and if I took on that front bunker it's going in it no matter how many times I say "Go! Go!" To it :-)

[shalabe]

Hi there and thanks. Regarding the yardage I'm quoting it's not so much a gap as a dispersion circle. Some shots go a tad left, some a little right, some a shade high and some a little lower. All of that effects the overall distance of the shot carry. When a pro says "I ht my 8 iron 163" he's quoting his average distance rather than saying every shot he hits goes exactly that yardage. If you look at the Trackman Combine world record shot by Steven Tiley you can see that at every range there is a scatter of yardages. He describes 120 yards as a "go to" shot but there's still a long and a short end of his shots and in that case it's more that 5 yards. https://trackmanfilesus.blob.core.windows.net/publicfiles/fae95c85-87c9-4c6b-9970-fcf38b047c12/Combine%20Test%20for%20steven%20tiley%202013-10-11%20(2).pdf http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-combine-world-record/ No matter who you are this will be the case. I'd say it's definitely worth knowing what your long and short carry numbers are simply to know whether a front bunker for instance is in play if a pin is tucked just over it. In answer to the question can I feel it when it's going to be at the shorter or longer end of the spectrum for a shot the answer is yes, I've spent so long on a launch monitor you get used to what a better strike feels like compared to an 'ok' strike. Although I'm not sure how useful that is - the ball's on it's way and if I took on that front bunker it's going in it no matter how many times I say "Go! Go!" To it :-)

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Knowing that you were referring to your normal long/short dispersion makes a lot of sense to me and is consistent with the LSW shot zones and my experience playing. Not sure why I read more into your comment than what was said - maybe it's my perception of how cool it would be to have your LM set-up and all the great data you must be getting - but I was thinking maybe there was something I should be considering within my normal dispersion/shot zone. Best of luck as you work towards your goals - I will be rooting for you while following your progress.

[Nosevi]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Knowing that you were referring to your normal long/short dispersion makes a lot of sense to me and is consistent with the LSW shot zones and my experience playing. Not sure why I read more into your comment than what was said - maybe it's my perception of how cool it would be to have your LM set-up and all the great data you must be getting - but I was thinking maybe there was something I should be considering within my normal dispersion/shot zone.

Best of luck as you work towards your goals - I will be rooting for you while following your progress.

No probs. I'm always happy for people to ask questions or suggest options. I'll always answer people's questions whether I choose to take their advice or not or whether we agree or not. At the moment what I'm doing seems to be working and all aspects of my game are creeping up but at some stage I'm sure some aspect or other will stall and I'm more than happy for people to give advice on things they've found useful.

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by iacas

P.S. Since you're likely strong willed enough to say "nah, that makes no sense," post some good high-speed video of your swing and I'll tell you what I think.

Still smiling at the first bit while acknowledging you're right (although not in this case, I do kind of get where you're coming from) , but have just ordered an iphone 6, pretty much exclusively for the high speed video. I could have just got a high speed camera but I'm already an iphone user and want something I can take to the range and onto the course for practice rounds etc. It'll be so much more useful than only getting high speed video now and then at the academy.

Your comment prompted me to consider it and I think it'll be a useful tool to help in the ongoing development of my swing. Give it a few days and you'll be able to see all the barking mad things I'm doing in my swing. You'll probably be amazed I get the ball to go kind of where I want it to go. I like to think of my swing as 'functional' rather than 'text-book' but I'm sure you'll have some better descriptive terms for it than that .