2015 Arnold Palmer Invitational Discussion Thread

[Rick Martin]

Hoffman looks athletic for a reason........

Good to see golfers like him on the tour and hopefully less of this......

[PatrickMurtha]

Despite the rough 3-hole stretch from Rory, he's gotta be feeling confident with Augusta right around the corner. His game is very close to what it should be. Whether he wins this week, I don't think it matters to him as much as it does finding his form. This course is a lot different than Augusta. He might not sticking his irons as close as he should be this week, but when you play in Augusta in 3 weeks, it's not about sticking shots. It's going to be about driving it straight and beating up those par-5s, as well as making clutch pars. If Rory can destroy those Par-5s, he'll have a green jacket.

Myself, I suspect that Rory is going to have an off-year in 2015, and I think that he will have off-years THROUGHOUT his career. True, he looked like the second coming last year; but remember, there was a fairly long stretch of 2013 when he played rather indifferently. I don't think it was just the change in clubs.

[PatrickMurtha]

Hoffman looks athletic for a reason........

Good to see golfers like him on the tour and hopefully less of this......

Well sure, but then why does Patrick Reed play so much better than far more athletic (and quite talented) golfers such as Harris English and Gary Woodland? Because, like baseball pitching, which has also had some highly unlikely physical specimens rank as masters (Mickey Lolich, Fernando Valenzuela), golf is more mental than it is anything else. This is not to say that strength and length don't count (of course, big guys can pack a wallop off the tee without necessarily hitting the gym). But that the best golfers are generally the smartest, wiliest golfers, of that I have no doubt. Jordan Spieth's brains will take him farther than his body.

[iacas]

golf is more mental than it is anything else.

Completely disagree. This makes no sense. Lop Nicklaus's head off and put it on a guy who shoots 110 and he's still not breaking 100 unless Jack's SKILLS are also magically transported over too. Reed, Daly, whomever have SKILLS.

[PatrickMurtha]

Completely disagree. This makes no sense. Lop Nicklaus's head on a guy who shoots 110 and he's still not breaking 100 unless Jack's SKILLS are also magically transported over too.

Reed, Daly, whomever have SKILLS.

And in what do those skills consist? Well, hand-eye coordination, for sure, but that is true of ALL sports. The reason I drew the comparison to pitching in baseball is that both golf and pitching are highly strategic, even chess-like. Why is Greg Maddux one of the greatest pitchers of all time? It's not his body, not even his arm (his speed was average), it was his mind. His concentration, his ability to carry out a plan, but also to adjust that plan on the fly, were uncanny. The great sabermetrician BIll James has made this point repeatedly - that the factor that unifies all great pitchers, as opposed to batters, is intelligence. (There are smart hitters too, of course, but hitting is more purely instinctive.)

I think golf is like that, too. Now, as a non-golfer I may be talking through my hat - but I don't think so. I'm not saying intelligence is ENOUGH to make one a great golfer, but I am saying that there is no such thing as a great golfer without it. Morgan Hoffmann is not going to become Phil Mickelson by working out. Phil Mickelson's "golf intelligence" (and his general intelligence, too) is WAY beyond the average, and is what makes him Phil. I don't think HE goes to the gym much. I like the new athletic breed of young golfer, too - but you know, the sport is not ultimately about athleticism.

[iacas]

Why is Greg Maddux one of the greatest pitchers of all time? It's not his body, not even his arm (his speed was average), it was his mind.

Completely disagree. Sorry. Maddox was great because he could pitch. He threw fast enough. He had control. He changed speeds and had enough pitches. Golf is absolutely an athletic endeavor. You're a non-golfer??

[dkolo]

And in what do those skills consist? Well, hand-eye coordination, for sure, but that is true of ALL sports. The reason I drew the comparison to pitching in baseball is that both golf and pitching are highly strategic, even chess-like. Why is Greg Maddux one of the greatest pitchers of all time? It's not his body, not even his arm (his speed was average), it was his mind. His concentration, his ability to carry out a plan, but also to adjust that plan on the fly, were uncanny. The great sabermetrician BIll James has made this point repeatedly - that the factor that unifies all great pitchers, as opposed to batters, is intelligence. (There are smart hitters too, of course, but hitting is more purely instinctive.) I think golf is like that, too. Now, as a non-golfer I may be talking through my hat - but I don't think so. I'm not saying intelligence is ENOUGH to make one a great golfer, but I am saying that there is no such thing as a great golfer without it. Morgan Hoffmann is not going to become Phil Mickelson by working out. Phil Mickelson's "golf intelligence" (and his general intelligence, too) is WAY beyond the average, and is what makes him Phil. I don't think HE goes to the gym much. I like the new athletic breed of young golfer, too - but you know, the sport is not ultimately about athleticism.

Maddux was brilliant. Randy Johnson threw it a billion miles an hour and could locate. I'm not saying Randy was a dope but take away his extraordinary pitches and he's not a hall of famer.

[PatrickMurtha]

Completely disagree. Sorry. Maddox was great because he could pitch. He threw fast enough. He had control. He changed speeds and had enough pitches.

Golf is absolutely an athletic endeavor.

You're a non-golfer??

Why so shocked? There are golf fans who are non-golfers, you know, even if they are a rather small minority.

Anyway, you're obviously not going to be persuaded by anything I say. I still think I am correct, but of course I would . However, I will point out that virtually all the commentary on Greg Maddux that you can read anywhere stresses his intelligence, and that there is also a vast literature on "the mental game of golf" - way bigger than my puny comments. So I don't think that I am entirely alone in making these points.

[billchao]

And in what do those skills consist? Well, hand-eye coordination, for sure, but that is true of ALL sports. The reason I drew the comparison to pitching in baseball is that both golf and pitching are highly strategic, even chess-like. Why is Greg Maddux one of the greatest pitchers of all time? It's not his body, not even his arm (his speed was average), it was his mind. His concentration, his ability to carry out a plan, but also to adjust that plan on the fly, were uncanny. The great sabermetrician BIll James has made this point repeatedly - that the factor that unifies all great pitchers, as opposed to batters, is intelligence. (There are smart hitters too, of course, but hitting is more purely instinctive.)

I think golf is like that, too. Now, as a non-golfer I may be talking through my hat - but I don't think so. I'm not saying intelligence is ENOUGH to make one a great golfer, but I am saying that there is no such thing as a great golfer without it. Morgan Hoffmann is not going to become Phil Mickelson by working out. Phil Mickelson's "golf intelligence" (and his general intelligence, too) is WAY beyond the average, and is what makes him Phil. I don't think HE goes to the gym much. I like the new athletic breed of young golfer, too - but you know, the sport is not ultimately about athleticism.

I disagree about Maddux.

How exactly do you think he was able to locate his pitches? That had to do with athleticism, not his mind. Sure, he was great at the setup game, but he needed to be able to execute an athletic movement, too. Besides, he was "average" speed for a MLB pitcher, which makes his speed faster than 99.9% of the world.

If you're not a golfer, I'm not sure how qualified you are to talk about the golf swing.

[iacas]

Why so shocked? There are golf fans who are non-golfers, you know, even if they are a rather small minority.

Not shocked at all. Just asking. It weakens your argument. [quote name="PatrickMurtha" url="/t/80859/2015-arnold-palmer-invitational-discussion-thread/60#post_1118525"]Anyway, you're obviously not going to be persuaded by anything I say. I still think I am correct, but of course I would . However, I will point out that virtually all the commentary on Greg Maddux that you can read anywhere stresses his intelligence, and that there is also a vast literature on "the mental game of golf" - way bigger than my puny comments. So I don't think that I am entirely alone in making these points.[/quote] You're not alone. But that doesn't mean you're right either. Put Maddux's brain inside the body of a A pitcher and he's… gonna be an A or maybe AA pitcher. Of course there are books on golf mental game. Golfers are gullible and buy anything.

[PatrickMurtha]

Maddux was brilliant. Randy Johnson threw it a billion miles an hour and could locate. I'm not saying Randy was a dope but take away his extraordinary pitches and he's not a hall of famer.

Sure, Johnson is a more physical case than Maddux, no argument there. But what enabled him to have a 22-year HOF career? He was able to adjust as his speed inevitably declined. Many fast pitchers can't do that and don't do that. I would still argue for intelligence.

Didn't mean to pull the subject away from golf!

[iacas]

Sure, Johnson is a more physical case than Maddux, no argument there. But what enabled him to have a 22-year HOF career? He was able to adjust as his speed inevitably declined. Many fast pitchers can't do that and don't do that. I would still argue for intelligence.

Dustin Johnson. I win. ;-)

[PatrickMurtha]

I disagree about Maddux.

How exactly do you think he was able to locate his pitches? That had to do with athleticism, not his mind. Sure, he was great at the setup game, but he needed to be able to execute an athletic movement, too. Besides, he was "average" speed for a MLB pitcher, which makes his speed faster than 99.9% of the world.

If you're not a golfer, I'm not sure how qualified you are to talk about the golf swing.

Bill James wasn't a baseball player, how was he qualified to talk about baseball? Anyway, I'm not pretending to be an absolute expert, and I'm not talking about swing mechanics. I'm just offering a general opinion based on 40+ years of watching the game. And my point is really this: Body athleticism is MORE important in some sports, LESS important in others, and you can tell what category I put golf into.

[iacas]

Bill James wasn't a baseball player, how was he qualified to talk about baseball? Anyway, I'm not pretending to be an absolute expert, and I'm not talking about swing mechanics. I'm just offering a general opinion based on 40+ years of watching the game. And my point is really this: Body athleticism is MORE important in some sports, LESS important in others, and you can tell what category I put golf into.

And I think you're wrong. And I play and teach the game. That doesn't make me automatically right. It does give me a good reason to stand by what I think when presented with your argument, which I would call weak. James didn't talk about baseball. He talked about statistics.

[dkolo]

Sure, Johnson is a more physical case than Maddux, no argument there. But what enabled him to have a 22-year HOF career? He was able to adjust as his speed inevitably declined. Many fast pitchers can't do that and don't do that. I would still argue for intelligence. Didn't mean to pull the subject away from golf!

I think you'll find in baseball as in golf, being smart will help around the margins. It can make a great pitcher legendary and it'll help a golfer save strokes. But you can't think your way to the PGA tour, I'm sad to say. You need extraordinary physical abilities. We credit Phil with golf intelligence but that's a combination of being out of position by his longer shots and a fearless short game. I think he's an amazing player, but I don't think his golf intelligence is why. He hits it a mile and can pull off some outrageous shots at good times. But he's risk / reward. That's a large part of why he's missed so many cuts.

[billchao]

Bill James wasn't a baseball player, how was he qualified to talk about baseball? Anyway, I'm not pretending to be an absolute expert, and I'm not talking about swing mechanics. I'm just offering a general opinion based on 40+ years of watching the game. And my point is really this: Body athleticism is MORE important in some sports, LESS important in others, and you can tell what category I put golf into.

See, that's the problem. Swing mechanics are 99% of the skill in golf. That takes athleticism. How do you qualify a motion that requires moving an object in excess of 100mph to hit a tiny ball something that's not athletic?

Golfers don't need great conditioning. That's not the same as lacking athleticism.

You singled out Greg Maddux as an example to prove your point, yet failed to mention the countless other HoF pitchers who were gifted athletically. I know people who I'd be willing to bet are smarter than Randy Johnson. Why aren't they HoF pitchers?

Sorry, I'm done here. This is all ridiculously OT for this thread.

[dkolo]

Bill James wasn't a baseball player, how was he qualified to talk about baseball? Anyway, I'm not pretending to be an absolute expert, and I'm not talking about swing mechanics. I'm just offering a general opinion based on 40+ years of watching the game. And my point is really this: Body athleticism is MORE important in some sports, LESS important in others, and you can tell what category I put golf into.

Here's the thing: I can know and visualize the right thing to do. I can understand and implement strategy I've learned. But I can't with the high degree of accuracy do the little physical things to match my vision and plan with execution. And it's incredibly hard to do. Professional golfers have the ability to control club face and swing paths to with one or two degrees, while matching up strike and speed. I'm often lucky to get the big metal thing on the little white round thing. The ability to execute is the name of the game in golf. Now, there's ways to make your margin of error bigger. You can hit it farther, so you're closer to the hole and thus can make a higher probability second shot, which can mask a worse first shot. That's a lot of Mickelson's game (I keep using him because you brought him up). That's why you'll often see the longest hitters winning tournaments. Hitting it farther is a physical skill. You can not look like an Adonis and have the muscle strength to hit it far, but it helps to have an athletic build for a number of reasons. But in any event, being successful at golf is almost entirely a combination of tremendous coordination and overall strength.

[PatrickMurtha]

Could you tell by LOOKING by Patrick Reed that he is a much better golfer than Harris English? Wouldn't you guess the opposite?

And if the "athleticism" we are talking about is mainly hand-eye coordination, then we get back to my point about Morgan Hoffmann not being able to become Phil Mickelson by going to the gym - but in a slightly different way. Let's say that the intelligence of which I speak is the ability to DEPLOY superb hand-eye coordination situationally. We'll take Phil's, and Tiger's, and Greg Maddux's, and Randy Johnson's phenomenal hand-eye coordination as givens. I agree, they are all in the 99.99th percentile that way. I still think the "mental game" is phenomenally important as a separating factor among professional sports players, virtually all of whom have hand-eye coordination that would beggar yours or mine. We are comparing apples to apples, right?

If I am COMPLETELY wrong about the importance of intelligence, then maybe in certain sports (and in certain positions in other sports), it does pretty much all boil down to hand-eye coordination, which is very largely a genetic factor assisted by repetitive practice. The gym is not going to help there, either.

My guess is that the jury is still out on whether physical conditioning can make a good professional golfer a much better one. Tiger didn't improve after all the weightlifting, but who knows what the causes and effects are there. Whether Rory has benefited in the long run by so assiduously hitting the weights himself will play out over time.

Remember, the original post I was responding to was comparing visuals of "fit golfer" with "unfit golfer," and that is what I have been responding to. I don't think the level of visible fitness or lack of it in a golfer tells us very much at all. I don't think I need to be a golfer myself to know that. I just have to look at Patrick Reed's belly!