Ball embedded in Casual Water

[Dormie1360]

A ball is embedded in casual water in the rough. You may take relief from the casual water.

If the local rule TTG for an embedded ball is in effect the player may take relief for the embedded ball and then decide if they want relief from the casual water.  Someone asked me if, in these circumstances, if they could just remove the embedded ball and take relief from the casual water.  I said yes.  Am I correct?

[ColinL]

I see no problem: if  the ball is in the casual water, relief can be taken from the casual water whatever situation the ball is in - embedded, up against an obstruction, lost.

[Rulesman]

If there is interference from two or more different conditions, the player may choose which relief procedure he wants to exercise first.

25-1b/11

Ball in Casual Water Within Ground Under Repair

Q. A ball lies in casual water within an area defined as ground under repair. May a player take relief from the casual water under Rule 25-1b , drop the ball in the ground under repair, and then either play the ball as it lies or take relief from the ground under repair under Rule 25-1b ?

A. Yes.

[fr0sty]

I see no problem: if  the ball is in the casual water, relief can be taken from the casual water whatever situation the ball is in - embedded, up against an obstruction, lost.

But relief from casual water does not allow you to clean your ball whereas relief from an embedded ball does.

My understanding is that you treat each situation individually and sequentially.

EDIT: Rulesman posted the decision I couldn't find. You do treat them individually and in the order you choose.

[Dormie1360]

Thanks Colin....and Rulesman.  Someone was questioning me on  this, telling me about two relief options and not being able to do a single drop which gives relief to both.  That didn't seem correct here, but was having trouble explaining why.

As my somewhat fogged brain now realizes, when the relief procedure of one still gives you interference for the other, it's two separate procedures.  In this case, relief under one rule takes care of both.

[Dormie1360]

But relief from casual water does not allow you to clean your ball whereas relief from an embedded ball does.

My understanding is that you treat each situation individually and sequentially.

I seem to remember a decision where you could consider two situations together to prevent you from oscillating constantly taking relief between two different obstructions but I can't find that currently.

You can clean your ball.  See above post for the rest.

[fr0sty]

25-1b/11.5

Ball in Casual Water Within Ground Under Repair; Whether Player Entitled to Take Relief from Both Conditions in Single Procedure

Q.The diagram shows a player's ball which lies in casual water, at Point X, within an area of ground under repair. May the player, in a single procedure, drop the ball at Point Y, the nearest point of relief from both conditions?

A.No. The player has the option of taking relief from each condition in separate stages but not from both at the same time.

The player may take relief from the casual water at Point A and then may take relief from the ground under repair.

Alternatively, he may take relief from ground under repair at Point B and then may take relief from the casual water.

Firstly, @Dormie1360 I agree that the player may clean his ball, but only if taking relief from the embedded ball first . If he decides to take relief from the casual water first then he loses the option to then get relief for his no-longer-embedded ball.

Secondly, relief from an embedded ball (dropping "as near as possible to the spot where it lay") is not likely to get you relief from the casual water so the second procedure will almost certainly be necessary.

Thirdly, a point I am not clear on is whether, after taking relief from the embedded ball, the ball must be actually dropped and picked up before taking relief from the casual water.

EDIT to strike the "clearly wrong" bit.

[Wansteadimp]

I thought if you were taking relief you could always clean your ball.

It's only if your opponent/fellow competitor asks you to mark your ball when it is not on the green that you can't clean it.

[ColinL]

Firstly, @Dormie1360 I agree that the player may clean his ball, but only if taking relief from the embedded ball first. If he decides to take relief from the casual water first then he loses the option to then get relief for his no-longer-embedded ball.

Secondly, relief from an embedded ball (dropping "as near as possible to the spot where it lay") is not likely to get you relief from the casual water so the second procedure will almost certainly be necessary.

Thirdly, a point I am not clear on is whether, after taking relief from the embedded ball, the ball must be actually dropped and picked up before taking relief from the casual water.

First point is just wrong, Fr0sty.  You can clean your ball when taking relief from an abnormal ground condition like casual water,  See Rule 25.

The ball may be cleaned when lifted under Rule 25-1b .

Re the second point,  I can't see any value in taking relief from an embedded ball in casual water and then from the casual water - what would be gained?  Taking relief in two stages from casual water in ground under repair could, however,  make sense if it meant that  the NPR for  the GUR  was in a more favourable position as a result.

If you are taking relief from two overlapping conditions such as casual water in GUR, you must go through the full procedure in turn for each.   You couldn't otherwise be able to determine the NPR for the second condition as you wouldn't know where the ball would have ended up after the first drop.

[fr0sty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinL

First point is just wrong, Fr0sty.  You can clean your ball when taking relief from an abnormal ground condition like casual water:

The ball may be cleaned when lifted under Rule 25-1b .

Mea Culpa @ColinL @Dormie1360 . I edited the previous post. The portion of rule 25-1 quoted above is down at the bottom and I stopped reading after the procedure for "through the green" which says:

the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty

Which I contrasted with the procedure for an embedded ball:

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark ... may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty

Serves me right, dashing of a half-considered reply...

[ColinL]

I thought if you were taking relief you could always clean your ball.

It's only if your opponent/fellow competitor asks you to mark your ball when it is not on the green that you can't clean it.

See Rule 21 for the three situations in which you are not allowed to clean your ball:

Lifting a ball that is interfering with play.

Lifting a ball to identify it.

Lifting a ball to check if it is unfit for play.

[DrvFrShow]

But mud could be covering a crack in the ball. If you can't remove the mud you cannot check to see if there is a crack under it. If you remove the mud to do so, do you have to reapply mud afterward?

Fortunately we play lift and clean until June. "Winter Rules" are still in effect due to the swamp.

[Rulesman]

But mud could be covering a crack in the ball. If you can't remove the mud you cannot check to see if there is a crack under it. If you remove the mud to do so, do you have to reapply mud afterward?

.

Good point. When lifting a ball for identification the the rule says "The ball must not be cleaned beyond the extent necessary for identification when lifted under Rule 12-2 ."

This concession is not given in 5-3.

It wouldn't surprise me if a ruling in equity was acceptable but the RBs must have a specific reason for not including it in the rule.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinL

I see no problem: if  the ball is in the casual water, relief can be taken from the casual water whatever situation the ball is in - embedded, up against an obstruction, lost.

But relief from casual water does not allow you to clean your ball whereas relief from an embedded ball does.

My understanding is that you treat each situation individually and sequentially.

EDIT: Rulesman posted the decision I couldn't find. You do treat them individually and in the order you choose.

I believe that the only times you can't clean your ball when lifted is if it is lifted for identification (can only be cleaned as much as necessary to identify it), or if requested to be lifted due to interference when the ball does not lie on the putting green.

[Dormie1360]

See Rule 21 for the three situations in which you are not allowed to clean your ball:

Lifting a ball that is interfering with play.

Lifting a ball to identify it.

Lifting a ball to check if it is unfit for play.

There is a 4th situation explained D20-1/0.7 Lifting Ball to Determine Application of Rule

An example would be lifting a ball to see if it's embedded, or whether or not it lies in an abnormal ground condition.  (Like a burrowing animal hole)

The procedure for this is similar to the steps required under R12-2 Lifting ball for identification.

Other than what's listed above,  if you have lifted a ball, even if the lifting was not authorized, you can clean it.  There is no additional penalty for cleaning your ball.