Baltimore protests

[dsc123]

Quote: The guy that wrote that piece has as much credibility on the subject as anyone here.   Lots of opinions and justifications for rioting and looting but no solutions.   Over 200 businesses were destroyed in the riots, where's the sympathy and empathy for the business owners who did nothing wrong?

There's little discussion of that because it's something everyone agrees on. hopefully they have insurance.

[Jeremie Boop]

Quote:

The guy that wrote that piece has as much credibility on the subject as anyone here.   Lots of opinions and justifications for rioting and looting but no solutions.   Over 200 businesses were destroyed in the riots, where's the sympathy and empathy for the business owners who did nothing wrong?

Not sure what credibility has to do with a comparison like that. There's a conscious decision by people to start rioting/looting, forest fires aren't started by a conscious decision, outside of arson/negligence. Even then there is no correlation to riots/looting. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any justifications/excuses for these actions, but there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will change my mind.

[mmoan2]

I'm sorry, but we know the facts, at least the basic facts. Did people riot, burn and loot? Yes!.. Did people violate the curfew and were arrested? Yes!.. Now was it right to be held in excess of 24 hours, without actually being charged? No! but we all know why it happened.....the city resources were taxed beyond their limits. No city, in reality, can prepare for such an event and even less, have in run like clockwork. This the actual construction of what transpired and you want to nit pic and speculate (without any real knowledge of the scope of what's going on) and then have the audacity to say It's BS and making stuff up and separate civil rights issues, that only are used to validate your position is bogus. The information is out there. The news reported the 200 business, last night on CBS I believe. The judicial system weighed in with no less than a Harvard Law Professor, stating that convictions would be difficult and there was a political motivated rush, in hopes of defusing the community. I offered what I consider insight into this, so lets dismiss the verbal jabs because you don't like what's been said. Doesn't make it any less true, just because you don't like it or happen to disagree.

I'm thinking you're responding to me, but I'm not sure. After your valid point that nothing runs in government like clockwork, I don't see anything there you've attributed to me that is anything I said. I said I DON'T speculate by nature. The basic facts are true I'm sure, and I agree that the convictions will be difficult. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say it's very tough you can prove murder 2 beyond a reasonable doubt for a guy driving a van. I just said it's dangerous to rush to judgment about the nuances of something you're not a part of. That's what causes stereotyping and racism. If you adopt the "I've seen enough thugs out there to spot one a mile away" attitude, it will creep into your psyche. A riot isn't what's important here. It's the incessant plight of black inner city citizens feeling like they're being crapped on. Until we figure out a way to get at that, this crap will happen every few months forever and only get worse.

[mmoan2]

Not sure what credibility has to do with a comparison like that. There's a conscious decision by people to start rioting/looting, forest fires aren't started by a conscious decision, outside of arson/negligence. Even then there is no correlation to riots/looting. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any justifications/excuses for these actions, but there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will change my mind.

I agree with you, but if my mom was a crack head and my dad left me at 5 never to return and I lived in squalor my entire life and had cops pull me over because my pants were baggy and I had a sideways baseball cap, I might resort to rioting as well. I feel lucky I'll never know what I would do in those circumstances.

BTW - a violent uprising 500x worse than this happened 200 years ago. It was led by some of the guys on the currency in your wallet. And those guys had it easy compared to what many inner city minorities go through right now.

[newtogolf]

Not sure what credibility has to do with a comparison like that. There's a conscious decision by people to start rioting/looting, forest fires aren't started by a conscious decision, outside of arson/negligence. Even then there is no correlation to riots/looting. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any justifications/excuses for these actions, but there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will change my mind.

I'm agreeing with you, he has no credibility, nor do we, we're not experts on police brutality, inner city youths or the psyche / mentality of rioters and looters.  He threw an opinion on the wall and we throw ours, my point was just because he has a blog and we don't doesn't lend anything more to his opinion.

[Jeremie Boop]

I'm agreeing with you, he has no credibility, nor do we, we're not experts on police brutality, inner city youths or the psyche / mentality of rioters and looters.  He threw an opinion on the wall and we throw ours, my point was just because he has a blog and we don't doesn't lend anything more to his opinion.

Ah, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I agree with you, but if my mom was a crack head and my dad left me at 5 never to return and I lived in squalor my entire life and had cops pull me over because my pants were baggy and I had a sideways baseball cap, I might resort to rioting as well. I feel lucky I'll never know what I would do in those circumstances.

BTW - a violent uprising 500x worse than this happened 200 years ago. It was led by some of the guys on the currency in your wallet. And those guys had it easy compared to what many inner city minorities go through right now.

I understand that many/most of us don't know what it's like to grow up in the most extreme areas, however there are a majority who grow up in those areas who do not resort to these things. As for relating these things to the revolutionary war... Yeah, I'm not even going to bother with that.

[newtogolf]

I'm thinking you're responding to me, but I'm not sure. After your valid point that nothing runs in government like clockwork, I don't see anything there you've attributed to me that is anything I said. I said I DON'T speculate by nature. The basic facts are true I'm sure, and I agree that the convictions will be difficult. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say it's very tough you can prove murder 2 beyond a reasonable doubt for a guy driving a van. I just said it's dangerous to rush to judgment about the nuances of something you're not a part of. That's what causes stereotyping and racism. If you adopt the "I've seen enough thugs out there to spot one a mile away" attitude, it will creep into your psyche. A riot isn't what's important here. It's the incessant plight of black inner city citizens feeling like they're being crapped on. Until we figure out a way to get at that, this crap will happen every few months forever and only get worse.

According to the statistics I've seen, Baltimore has a black mayor, black police commissioner, black city council president, 10 out of 15 council members are black, 50% of their police force is black, and they spend more per student on education than just about any other city, yet their violent crime rate is 4X the national average.  So it would seem it's their own people crapping on them if what you say is true.

[mmoan2]

According to the statistics I've seen, Baltimore has a black mayor, black police commissioner, black city council president, 10 out of 15 council members are black, 50% of their police force is black, and they spend more per student on education than just about any other city, yet their violent crime rate is 4X the national average.  So it would seem it's their own people crapping on them if what you say is true.

Your statistics are correct, but even if its "their" own people, "they" have it bad. If you're implying that taking it out on white cops and local business owners is misguided, you may have a point as well. It still sucks there, though (my dad's family lives there), and to an ill-informed kid with hatred in his heart, if the mob says it's the white cop's fault, that's who gets blamed. For good or bad.

[mmoan2]

Ah, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I understand that many/most of us don't know what it's like to grow up in the most extreme areas, however there are a majority who grow up in those areas who do not resort to these things. As for relating these things to the revolutionary war... Yeah, I'm not even going to bother with that.

Every person is a case-by-case basis. Looters and rioters need to be punished by the law - the law is all society has - but until I know them well or walk in their shoes, I do not judge their actions. Nor do I dismiss them.

If you don't want to bother with The Revolutionary War comment, go ahead. If you think that many inner city minority communities don't share similar characteristics, you're not looking hard enough. They don't want to bother with you either. Hang out in Queensbridge or Washington Heights some time.

I apologize for the tone I take, and I don't mean to offend. I enjoy the debate. Thank you.

[newtogolf]

Your statistics are correct, but even if its "their" own people, "they" have it bad. If you're implying that taking it out on white cops and local business owners is misguided, you may have a point as well. It still sucks there, though (my dad's family lives there), and to an ill-informed kid with hatred in his heart, if the mob says it's the white people's fault, that's who gets blamed. For good or bad.

It's a tough situation, kids are influenced by their surroundings.  Inner city youths (regardless of race) are faced with gang influences, hip hop music and a failing family structure.  Gangs are convincing these kids at an early age the only way to have "nice things" is to join the gang and sell drugs.  I've watched documentaries where inner city kids are recruited by gangs when they are 7-8 years old!  How do these kids stand a chance of getting an education when they are under the influence of criminals and music which brainwash them during their formative years?

[RJH999]

It's a tough situation, kids are influenced by their surroundings.  Inner city youths (regardless of race) are faced with gang influences, hip hop music and a failing family structure.  Gangs are convincing these kids at an early age the only way to have "nice things" is to join the gang and sell drugs.  I've watched documentaries where inner city kids are recruited by gangs when they are 7-8 years old!  How do these kids stand a chance of getting an education when they are under the influence of criminals and music which brainwash them during their formative years?

I don't think "hip-hop music" belongs, sir

[jamo]

I'm agreeing with you, he has no credibility, nor do we, we're not experts on police brutality, inner city youths or the psyche / mentality of rioters and looters.  He threw an opinion on the wall and we throw ours, my point was just because he has a blog and we don't doesn't lend anything more to his opinion.

What would make someone an "expert" on such subjects?

[newtogolf]

What would make someone an "expert" on such subjects?

There are sociologists that study such things as a profession.

[jamo]

There are sociologists that study such things as a profession.

Got it. Just wanted to make sure "grew up in West Baltimore" doesn't lend his opinion more weight than ours!

[Golfingdad]

Not sure what credibility has to do with a comparison like that. There's a conscious decision by people to start rioting/looting, forest fires aren't started by a conscious decision, outside of arson/negligence. Even then there is no correlation to riots/looting. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any justifications/excuses for these actions, but there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will change my mind.

I think you're reading way too much into one sentence.  All that sentence says is "rioting is not 'correct' or 'wise.'"  What's to disagree with there?

[Jeremie Boop]

I think you're reading way too much into one sentence.  All that sentence says is "rioting is not 'correct' or 'wise.'"  What's to disagree with there?

That's not all that says to me, if that's all he meant then there was no point in adding that part about forest fire. To me he was saying it's a natural thing.

[turtleback]

I don't think "hip-hop music" belongs, sir

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

[mdl]

Comparing rioting and violence to a forest fire is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Way to not even try to understand the point.  The point is not to say that rioting is right or that people have no choice but to riot like it's some kind of physical force.  It's that it's unsurprising and that it's disingenuous and fraudulent to sit in a position of power in a system that rains constant violence on a community through the very tool with which it is supposed to serve and protect that community and then react to violent reaction with righteous calls for calm and order and restraint.  The fraud is that these calls for non-violence and restraint are made with the fraudulent implication that you and the state system in which you hold power have been dealing with the community in question with calm and order and restraint all along so this violent reaction is just totally incomprehensible.

I'm agreeing with you, he has no credibility, nor do we, we're not experts on police brutality, inner city youths or the psyche / mentality of rioters and looters.  He threw an opinion on the wall and we throw ours, my point was just because he has a blog and we don't doesn't lend anything more to his opinion.

Well, he's a national correspondent for the Atlantic who's been investigating and thinking about writing about these issues for years, grew up in the neighborhood where the rioting started, and his mother grew up in the same housing project where the guy who died lived.  But of course, you're not actually arguing about his credibility.  You're just hand waving, talking dismissively about everyone's opinions, then pretending that since every just has an opinion the true story must be whatever your opinion is.

Got it. Just wanted to make sure "grew up in West Baltimore" doesn't lend his opinion more weight than ours!

I think it gives him a much greater and more personal understanding of what's going on.  That doesn't logically imply he's "right", but it does mean his opinion is wildly better informed than ours.