Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[saevel25]

So when it's a valid point it's a straw man... Got it.

I loved how you all ignored the "make up your score on each hole you can't play" argument.

How is that better than taking a free drop 5 feet from where I can't find my ball?

No one is saying you can't play. If you want to play your version of golf then that is fine. Just don't claim you play golf by the rules of golf when you don't.

If you can't find your ball then how do you know you are 5 FT from it? That's the point. You can't assume you know where it's at.

Also, the expected strokes are not the same. By denying going back to the tee you take away other options like hitting the ball in the fairway on your 2nd drive. Maybe you hit a ball behind a tree, or one OB.

[pumaAttack]

If you can't find your ball, how do you always know where to drop "5 feet" from it? Of course, you don't. Oftentimes you can't be sure you're within 50 yards.... I know you might find it hard to believe, but the sun rises and sets elsewhere in the world too. Heck, almost every day! ;-) Have fun. Play by the rules, or not. It's no skin off my nose whatsoever. In fact, if it helps speed up your pace of play, I encourage you to play however you like. But there are genuine reasons, built around the guiding principles of the game that are the basis for the rules as they are. Failing to follow those principles, by definition, fundamentally changes the game of golf.

The intensity of the sun is not the same everywhere, hence why I listed my location... I am fundamentally asking two questions. I am "virtually certain" where it lies but can't find it. How is that different than "virtually certain" an outside agent took my ball? One says free drop and the other says stroke and distance. I play 14 holes and have to quit due to darkness. I assume my score for the remaining holes to fill in my round. Not just where my ball is but LITERALLY every shot for the remaining holes is a total guess. That is ok but by assuming where my ball is based off visual and course data is not ok?

[pumaAttack]

No one is saying you can't play. If you want to play your version of golf then that is fine. Just don't claim you play golf by the rules of golf when you don't. If you can't find your ball then how do you know you are 5 FT from it? That's the point. You can't assume you know where it's at.  Also, the expected strokes are not the same. By denying going back to the tee you take away other options like hitting the ball in the fairway on your 2nd drive. Maybe you hit a ball behind a tree, or one OB.

I can 100% certainly assume where my ball is. So next time you fill in your unplayed holes, you are going to assume a lost ball penalty? How about a gust of wind taking one drive ob. How about a putt that hits a spike mark? Or are you just going to give yourself pars? Somehow that level of assuming is fine but knowing your ball came to rest under hundreds of leaves is completely asinine and requires a stroke and distance.

[dkolo]

I can 100% certainly assume where my ball is.

So next time you fill in your unplayed holes, you are going to assume a lost ball penalty? How about a gust of wind taking one drive ob. How about a putt that hits a spike mark? Or are you just going to give yourself pars?

Somehow that level of assuming is fine but knowing your ball came to rest under hundreds of leaves is completely asinine and requires a stroke and distance.

You're conflating different things. You're talking about the procedures for unplayed holes as if you're actually making that your score. It's not. It's only what you enter for your handicap. And since a higher score for handicap in theory gives you an advantage, you don't get to assume you made a mess of your score on unplayed holes. So you're supposed to enter par plus whatever handicap strokes you would have gotten. The procedure you're describing isn't used for unplayed holes, such as those unplayed because of darkness

[David in FL]

The intensity of the sun is not the same everywhere, hence why I listed my location... I am fundamentally asking two questions. I am "virtually certain" where it lies but can't find it. How is that different than "virtually certain" an outside agent took my ball? One says free drop and the other says stroke and distance. I play 14 holes and have to quit due to darkness. I assume my score for the remaining holes to fill in my round. Not just where my ball is but LITERALLY every shot for the remaining holes is a total guess. That is ok but by assuming where my ball is based off visual and course data is not ok?

1. Because the rules have to treat every lost ball the same, not just the relatively few times when you think you know about where it is, and still can't find it. BTW, I can't tell you how many times I, and/or my playing partners thought we knew exactly where a ball was, only to find it someplace quite far from that location. Lost is lost. 2. Having played 14 holes, you don't "guess" your score for the remaining holes. You assign yourself a score equal to par plus any handicap strokes to which you would be entitled for each hole. Again, consistent and equitable for everyone, with no room for guessing or interpretation. 4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X." Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Decision 4-2/1 and Section 5-2b.)

[saevel25]

I can 100% certainly assume where my ball is.

So next time you fill in your unplayed holes, you are going to assume a lost ball penalty? How about a gust of wind taking one drive ob. How about a putt that hits a spike mark? Or are you just going to give yourself pars?

If you don't see it land then you can't assume 100% because you actually didn't see it happen.

Nope, because if my ball looks like it's heading OB then I hit a provisional.

Spike marks are part of the green. You can't assume it's a spike mark or just some other natural imperfection, so no fixing them.

Here's the thing, it isn't hard to play by the rules of golf.

I am "virtually certain" where it lies but can't find it. How is that different than "virtually certain" an outside agent took my ball? One says free drop and the other says stroke and distance.

Because being certain that the ball is there is different than actually finding it.

Also, virtual certain means you saw an outside agency near your ball and you thought you saw the ball move. You have to have some compelling evidence. You just can't make up fictional outside agencies and assume they took your ball.

If you keep losing golf balls then stop hitting them into the rough all the time. Club down when the rough is up or if the sun is blinding. Keep the ball in play. If not then keep breaking the rules.

[Fourputt]

Well I just actually read the rules and I was right all along. I can 100% take a free drop in the situations I outlined.

You guys may want to read rule 27-1. Before or after you get off your high horses.

No you don't any "free" drops for any of those conditions.  You need to read what is written, not what you want to see.

So when it's a valid point it's a straw man... Got it.

I loved how you all ignored the "make up your score on each hole you can't play" argument.

How is that better than taking a free drop 5 feet from where I can't find my ball?

Obviously you all have amazing vision and have never played into the Colorado sun during the evening. I could literally hit 10 shots and not see the landing location of any of them. That sure would be a fun round for me and everybody behind me.

Nah I think I will take the free drop. If it's near water or OB I will take those penalties.

If you are 5 feet from your ball and can't find it they there are other issues.  I'm not sure that I ever lost a ball when I knew the location within 5 feet unless it was unplayable rough.  in that case I go play the provisional ball that I probably hit when I saw my ball headed for the deep stuff.  If I'm playing on a wager, then I treat it as we have decided to treat such unexpected situations if I didn't play a provisional ball - usually we agree on a drop point and add 2 strokes for stroke and distance.

You can do whatever you want when it's not a competition.  And yes, I've played in the Colorado sun for 40 years, so don't try to tell me your sad stories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

If you can't find your ball, how do you always know where to drop "5 feet" from it? Of course, you don't. Oftentimes you can't be sure you're within 50 yards....

I know you might find it hard to believe, but the sun rises and sets elsewhere in the world too. Heck, almost every day!

Have fun. Play by the rules, or not. It's no skin off my nose whatsoever. In fact, if it helps speed up your pace of play, I encourage you to play however you like. But there are genuine reasons, built around the guiding principles of the game that are the basis for the rules as they are. Failing to follow those principles, by definition, fundamentally changes the game of golf.

The intensity of the sun is not the same everywhere, hence why I listed my location...

I am fundamentally asking two questions.

I am "virtually certain" where it lies but can't find it. How is that different than "virtually certain" an outside agent took my ball? One says free drop and the other says stroke and distance.

I play 14 holes and have to quit due to darkness. I assume my score for the remaining holes to fill in my round. Not just where my ball is but LITERALLY every shot for the remaining holes is a total guess. That is ok but by assuming where my ball is based off visual and course data is not ok?

You do not "guess" at a score for holes not played, you mark par plus any handicap strokes allowed for each of those holes.  That is a very definite number, no guessing.

You need to work harder on the meaning of "known or virtually certain".  It means that you know positively that it was taken, or the circumstances are such that there is no other possibility.  That would mean that you saw the ball at rest, and you saw someone or some animal walk past it, and after they passed, the ball was no longer there.  That is the only way that virtual certainty comes into that ruling.

[pumaAttack]

You guys must all be a hoot to play with. Do you spend 5 minutes lining up your putts too?

[dkolo]

You guys must all be a hoot to play with.

Do you spend 5 minutes lining up your putts too?

No we don't and don't be rude.

[David in FL]

You guys must all be a hoot to play with. Do you spend 5 minutes lining up your putts too?

It takes no longer, or is any way "less fun" to play by the rules as to not.

[pumaAttack]

No we don't and don't be rude.

Odd. I find it far more rude to make everybody else around me wait as I walk back to the tee to hit another shot. I would say it's much more considerate to either take a free drop or one stroke penalty drop at an agreed upon locale.

[pumaAttack]

It takes no longer, or is any way "less fun" to play by the rules as to not.

Takes no longer to walk back to the tee?

[David in FL]

Odd. I find it far more rude to make everybody else around me wait as I walk back to the tee to hit another shot. I would say it's much more considerate to either take a free drop or one stroke penalty drop at an agreed upon locale.

So, in a casual round with your buddies, assuming you failed to hit a provisional, for whatever reason, drop and play on. Just recognize that doing so is not in accordance with the rules and in a formal competition you would be unable to do so. Trust me, in a formal competition, no one will consider you rude, because they all understand that you are all playing by the same set of rules. A set of rules that must take into account all possible scenarios and treat them in the same, consistent manner. [quote name="pumaAttack" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid/126#post_1187112"] Takes no longer to walk back to the tee?[/quote] You don't have to walk back, if you've hit a provisional, as you should, 99% of the time.

[Abu3baid]

So, in a casual round with your buddies, assuming you failed to hit a provisional, for whatever reason, drop and play on.

Just recognize that doing so is not in accordance with the rules and in a formal competition you would be unable to do so. Trust me, in a formal competition, no one will consider you rude, because they all understand that you are all playing by the same set of rules. A set of rules that must take into account all possible scenarios and treat them in the same, consistent manner.

You don't have to walk back, if you've hit a provisional, as you should, 99% of the time.

I agree.. in a casual round, just drop the ball and consider it a hole played not in accordance to the rule and move on.. no big deal happens all the time..

[pumaAttack]

I have NEVER played a round of golf, non tournament, where another golfer couldn't find a ball and walked back to the tee. It just doesn't make sense to do that on a public course. Why not amend the rule to say assume the best possible locale and take a stroke penalty. Only for non tournament play of course. Hitting provisionals all the time doesn't help pace of play either. You have to search for the first ball. Either find it and play it. Then go search for that provisional. Or spend 5 minutes. Give up and then go find your provisional. Just saying their should be an allowed legal way to address the lost ball rule besides stroke and distance. It just doesn't make sense for the average golfer.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

The intensity of the sun is not the same everywhere, hence why I listed my location...

And you think the intensity of the sun is high in Colorado? Lol. You do realize it's based on latitude, right? It may be more 'intense' than Canada, but a large portion of this forum lives south of Colorado.

[David in FL]

I have NEVER played a round of golf, non tournament, where another golfer couldn't find a ball and walked back to the tee. It just doesn't make sense to do that on a public course. Why not amend the rule to say assume the best possible locale and take a stroke penalty. Only for non tournament play of course. Hitting provisionals all the time doesn't help pace of play either. You have to search for the first ball. Either find it and play it. Then go search for that provisional. Or spend 5 minutes. Give up and then go find your provisional. Just saying their should be an allowed legal way to address the lost ball rule besides stroke and distance. It just doesn't make sense for the average golfer.

. You're free to do so in your group. As I've said before, do whatever you like. But the game is the game, and there's no need for a separate set of rules for those that simply don't want to play by the rules in the first place. This is NOT meant to be condescending, but I highly recommend "The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf" (by Richard S. Tufts, and updated for the 2012-2015 Rules by William J. Williams, Jr.). It's a great little book that costs only $2 from the USGA. It'll give you some great insight as to why so many rules that might seem silly or unnecessary, are written as they are. A good read for those who are genuinely interested in the rules of our game.

[Fourputt]

I have NEVER played a round of golf, non tournament, where another golfer couldn't find a ball and walked back to the tee. It just doesn't make sense to do that on a public course.

Why not amend the rule to say assume the best possible locale and take a stroke penalty. Only for non tournament play of course.

Hitting provisionals all the time doesn't help pace of play either. You have to search for the first ball. Either find it and play it. Then go search for that provisional. Or spend 5 minutes. Give up and then go find your provisional.

Just saying their should be an allowed legal way to address the lost ball rule besides stroke and distance. It just doesn't make sense for the average golfer.

First of all, my ball search time is dictated by the situation.  If the course is playing well and I have players coming up behind me, or if the search is relatively hopeless, then I take very little time looking before I head over to continue with my provisional ball.  Playing a provisional ball takes all of 10 or 15 seconds after the rest of the group has hit.  It may take a bit longer than that to go pick it up if the original ball is found, but that's easy to make up.  Or as often happens, part of the group is riding, or another walker is playing from the area where your provisional ball is at, and can pick it up and return it to you when convenient.  If the course is playing slow, then I can search all I want and still have no problem keeping up.

The rules of golf have always applied to all players, and I don't see that changing, despite all the crying I see from others like you.  I've played by the rules for more than 25 years, and I'm one of the faster players you will run into.  I don't walk back to the tee on a crowded public course, and like you I've never seen anyone do that who wasn't playing in a competition.  The handicap manual addresses it so that you can still have a legitimate score for reporting.  Most groups have their own method for addressing it to keep the wagers fair without backing up the course.  Nothing else needs to be done.