driver out of bounds in woods question

[Baog]

Why is it gentlemanly to use the rules for YOUR advantage but not gentlemanly when your opponent uses them for HIS advantage?

Because in the scenario you describe your opponent would be using the rules for your disadvantage, which is generally uncool, even in match play (see Suzanne Pettersen at the Solheim Cup). It would be similar to cheering when you miss a short putt to halve a hole.

[Fourputt]

Then declare your unplayable and go re-hit.   You cannot tell me that when you decide not to look, in part you aren't essentially deciding between hitting your provisional lying 3 or, potentially, hitting your original lying 1.  AND that the decision is made with the full knowledge of where the provisional ended up.

To me if anything is ungentlemanly it is using looking for or not looking for your ball as implicitly making a decision between 2 balls, something that the rules do not explicitly allow.  Would you be so quick to abandon the original ball if you had a crappy provisional?  Maybe not.  The position of the provisional is definitely going to affect your decision.  You might decide to look REAL HARD for the original, for example, if you dribbled your provisional off the tee and then hit it 3 more times before getting to the area where your original is likely to have been.  As compared to how hard you will look if you blast one right down the middle.

The point is that the rules sometimes give you latitude.  It also sometimes gives your opponent latitude.  None of the above is specified by the rues.  The rules allow you to look for or not look for your ball.  The rules allow your opponent to look for or not look for your ball.  

Why is it OK for you to use THAT latitude the rules give you but it is not OK for the opponent to use the latitude the rules allow him when he searches for your ball?

Why is it gentlemanly to use the rules for YOUR advantage but not gentlemanly when your opponent uses them for HIS advantage?

There is nothing ungentlemanly about choosing to not search for your ball.  And you are not making a choice between two balls, You are making a choice between a known playable lie and an unknown but expected worse lie.  That is quite different from choosing between two balls, the situation of each already being known. 

It is unsportsmanlike to continue to search for your opponent or fellow competitor's ball if he has stated his desire to leave it lie as it is.  In my opinion, that is simply  admitting that you don't have game enough to beat him in an honorable manner, so you choose to use a legitimate but underhanded loophole in the rules instead.

[Abu3baid]

There is nothing ungentlemanly about choosing to not search for your ball.  And you are not making a choice between two balls, You are making a choice between a known playable lie and an unknown but expected worse lie.  That is quite different from choosing between two balls, the situation of each already being known. 

It is unsportsmanlike to continue to search for your opponent or fellow competitor's ball if he has stated his desire to leave it lie as it is.  In my opinion, that is simply  admitting that you don't have game enough to beat him in an honorable manner, so you choose to use a legitimate but underhanded loophole in the rules instead.

I find it hard to believe that the golf bodies have left something in the rules that you consider to be unsportsmanlike and underhanded loophole.  If that was the case then why not change the rules so that if someone chooses not to search for their ball then that is the end of it?

The fact is, the player has the option to do that right from the start... You hit one in the woods and you don't want to play it, just play your third and don't call a provisional..  

I see nothing unsportsmanlike in doing something that is part of the rules, and I'm assuming since there is an underlining reason to allow opponents to look for the ball I am surprised you define it as a loophole..  I guess this is one rule you have no issue in changing then?

[Lihu]

I find it hard to believe that the golf bodies have left something in the rules that you consider to be unsportsmanlike and underhanded loophole.  If that was the case then why not change the rules so that if someone chooses not to search for their ball then that is the end of it?

The fact is, the player has the option to do that right from the start... You hit one in the woods and you don't want to play it, just play your third and don't call a provisional..  

I see nothing unsportsmanlike in doing something that is part of the rules, and I'm assuming since there is an underlining reason to allow opponents to look for the ball I am surprised you define it as a loophole..  I guess this is one rule you have no issue in changing then?

I'm just imagining the situation where someone is forced by an opponent to use a ball buried in a tree root in the middle of the forest.

[iacas]

I find it hard to believe that the golf bodies have left something in the rules that you consider to be unsportsmanlike and underhanded loophole.  If that was the case then why not change the rules so that if someone chooses not to search for their ball then that is the end of it?

It's a loophole the same way hiding the ball in the first baseman's glove is a loophole. It's "not cool" but legal.

[Abu3baid]

It's a loophole the same way hiding the ball in the first baseman's glove is a loophole. It's "not cool" but legal.

You're entitled to your opinion of what's cool and what's not.. I don't see it as unsportsmanlike just like hiding the ball in your baseball analogy is not unsportsmanlike.  (I also don't find either rule uncool)

I wonder what other rules of golf people think are "uncool"..  I know the crowd that that would like to drop the ball in the area they lost their ball think that stroke and distance is uncool.. Maybe I'll start a thread.. :)

[Fourputt]

I find it hard to believe that the golf bodies have left something in the rules that you consider to be unsportsmanlike and underhanded loophole.  If that was the case then why not change the rules so that if someone chooses not to search for their ball then that is the end of it?

The fact is, the player has the option to do that right from the start... You hit one in the woods and you don't want to play it, just play your third and don't call a provisional..  

I see nothing unsportsmanlike in doing something that is part of the rules, and I'm assuming since there is an underlining reason to allow opponents to look for the ball I am surprised you define it as a loophole..  I guess this is one rule you have no issue in changing then?

It's about showing respect for your fellow players.  Just as it's good sportsmanship to help your fellow competitor in searching for his ball, it's unsportsmanlike to search when he asks you not to do so.  The only possible reason is that you are enough of a jerk that you want to see him forced to abandon  his provisional in the hopes that it results in a worse situation than he is already facing with the current stroke and distance penalty.  I restate that the only possible reason is that you don't have game enough to beat him even after he has incurred the penalty, so you have to resort to subterfuge to gain an advantage.  I don't see anything positive in winning a match that way.

Golfers expect to be playing among gentlemen, but apparently some here believe in win at all costs, even if it means they have to act like asses to succeed.  

 

Edited October 24, 2015 by Fourputt

[Abu3baid]

It's about showing respect for your fellow players.  Just as it's good sportsmanship to help your fellow competitor in searching for his ball, it's unsportsmanlike to search when he asks you not to do so.  The only possible reason is that you are enough of a jerk that you want to see him forced to abandon  his provisional in the hopes that it results in a worse situation than he is already facing with the current stroke and distance penalty.  I restate that the only possible reason is that you don't have game enough to beat him even after he has incurred the penalty, so you have to resort to subterfuge to gain an advantage.  I don't see any advantage in winning a match that way.

Golfers expect to be playing among gentlemen, but apparently some here believe in win at all costs, even if it means they have to act like asses to succeed.  

 

sounds interesting.. Not sure why you are taking this so personal, but no issue.. So, now the person who does this is also not showing respect to his opponent?

Let's be clear that we are talking about a hypothetical situation here, and I'm not sure it has even ever happened or not.. However, if it did I wouldn't hold it against the person who went looking.. Maybe he had 10,000 on the line, and he needed to win this hole?  I don't know and I don't care.. As long as he is within his right I can't hold it against him like you do.. You judge him because he is following the rules as someone who is disrespectful, while I look at it as him using the rules as they are written..

you don't like that rule?  Tough luck!  It's equitable and you get to do the same thing.. Again, you keep avoiding the most basic argument.. You don't want me looking for your ball.. Don't play mind games and just don't call s provisional... Only call a provisional if your intention is to look for the ball.. Simple., don't be disrespectful by playing mind games and then deciding if you will play your provisional depending on the spot of the ball...

 

[iacas]

You're entitled to your opinion of what's cool and what's not.. I don't see it as unsportsmanlike just like hiding the ball in your baseball analogy is not unsportsmanlike.  (I also don't find either rule uncool)

I wonder what other rules of golf people think are "uncool"..  I know the crowd that that would like to drop the ball in the area they lost their ball think that stroke and distance is uncool.. Maybe I'll start a thread.. :)

@Abu3baid, It's not a rule of golf that's "uncool." It's the action of the player that's uncool. It's uncool to stand in a position that annoys your opponent, but it's not necessarily against the Rules of Golf, either. It's not the rule that's uncool, it's what the player does. It's not against the Rules of Golf to make your opponent tap in a two-inch putt, but it's uncool.

sounds interesting.. Not sure why you are taking this so personal, but no issue.. So, now the person who does this is also not showing respect to his opponent?

I don't think anyone's taking it personally.

Let's be clear that we are talking about a hypothetical situation here, and I'm not sure it has even ever happened or not.

It happened on Big Break. It's happened to Phil Mickelson on the PGA Tour. It's happened often.

you don't like that rule?  Tough luck!  It's equitable and you get to do the same thing.. Again, you keep avoiding the most basic argument.. You don't want me looking for your ball.. Don't play mind games and just don't call a provisional... Only call a provisional if your intention is to look for the ball.. Simple., don't be disrespectful by playing mind games and then deciding if you will play your provisional depending on the spot of the ball...

I don't see it as "playing mind games."

Maybe you play a provisional and upon getting near the area see that it'd be a horrible place from which to play your ball, so you decide not to even look for it.

At the end of the day, golfers should generally be more concerned with their own ball than that of their opponent's. What are you gonna do - traipse through the rough looking for your opponent's ball while he's rushing over to play his provisional before you can find his ball? What if he's not away - will you cancel his stroke too because he played out of turn and take the full five minutes to search?

Go worry about your ball. If your opponent wants to look for his ball, etiquette says you should help. There's no "rule" against not helping, but it's the honorable thing to do. Same holds true in reverse: if you're looking for his ball when he's asked you not to, or isn't looking for himself, that's not the cool thing to do just the same way as not helping to look for his ball when he is looking is not the cool thing to do.