Controlled wedge to green

[collapse]

These two videos are good because the technique works and we have Ben Hogan hitting the shot with a wedge with a closed stance.

 

[SavvySwede]

1 hour ago, collapse said:

These two videos are good because the technique works and we have Ben Hogan hitting the shot with a wedge with a closed stance.

 

Ben is set up that way because because he has an awkard lie with the ball above his feet and on a downslope. You don't need to close your stance to hit a low spinner with a wedge.

[natureboy]

4 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

Ben is set up that way because because he has an awkard lie with the ball above his feet and on a downslope. You don't need to close your stance to hit a low spinner with a wedge.

I don't see the above his feet lie so much, but downhill yes. Closing the stance may have been a hedge against opening up / spinning out due to the lie and subsequently cutting across the ball and/or getting too shallow. I believe he tended to be slightly open with his stance for a 'standard' wedge / pitch.

[SavvySwede]

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I don't see the above his feet lie so much, but downhill yes. Closing the stance may have been a hedge against opening up / spinning out due to the lie and subsequently cutting across the ball and/or getting too shallow. I believe he tended to be slightly open with his stance for a 'standard' wedge / pitch.

Just look at where his heels are compared his toes and the ball. The ball above the feet forces you to aim right because the slope points the clubface left, not a necessary adjustment for a regular downhill lie.

[natureboy]

5 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

Just look at where his heels are compared his toes and the ball. The ball above the feet forces you to aim right because the slope points the clubface left, not a necessary adjustment for a regular downhill lie.

Good point. You're right. Sidehill is much smaller relative to the downhill slope and I focused on that. But like I said, he tended to play a standard pitch with a slightly open (lead foot pulled back from target line) stance. So if he was just aiming right instead of having a more closed stance than normal the front foot should still appear withdrawn from the target / aim line that we are looking down in this shot (as best I can tell).

So seems to me that he's aligned right and playing slightly for a pull / draw, but with a stance that is more closed than typical for a short wedge shot as well. IMO, this could be a downhill lie adjustment to ensure coming at the ball from the inside for a spinny trap draw.

[SavvySwede]

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Good point. You're right. Sidehill is much smaller relative to the downhill slope and I focused on that. But like I said, he tended to play a standard pitch with a slightly open (lead foot pulled back from target line) stance. So if he was just aiming right instead of having a more closed stance than normal the front foot should still appear withdrawn from the target / aim line that we are looking down in this shot (as best I can tell).

So seems to me that he's aligned right and playing slightly for a pull / draw, but with a stance that is more closed than typical for a short wedge shot as well. IMO, this could be a downhill lie adjustment to ensure coming at the ball from the inside for a spinny trap draw.

The camera is aimed at the target not where Ben's feet were aimed so the stance should appear closed. I think the title of the vid is also misleading. He is hitting a full iron shot with a pitching wedge and not a "pitch" shot with a wedge.

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

The camera is aimed at the target not where Ben's feet were aimed so the stance should appear closed. I think the title of the vid is also misleading. He is hitting a full iron shot with a pitching wedge and not a "pitch" shot with a wedge.

How do you know what club he is using? It looks like that shot could be anywhere from 60 to 100 yards. Camera perspective shrinks relative size of distant objects.

IMO the camera is aimed right down the target line to which his stance is slightly closed (right foot drawn back a bit). The ball and dirt explosion (not the divot itself) at :09 both fly straight toward the center of the bunker that is visible to the right and rear. Can't tell from the pics, but expect the pin position is just left of that line or possibly even right of that line. Ben Hogan is not aiming for the center of the green from that close.

 

@collapse here is a counterpoint to the in-out path 'feel' on pitches for consideration. For Ridyard, the in-out path raises his smash factor too much over a 1:1 relationship, which hurts his distance control. I suppose it all depends on what works for your mechanics / feels.

 

Edited November 30, 2015 by natureboy

[natureboy]

3 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

The camera is aimed at the target not where Ben's feet were aimed so the stance should appear closed. I think the title of the vid is also misleading. He is hitting a full iron shot with a pitching wedge and not a "pitch" shot with a wedge.

 

Per the Hogan video title, you are right it's an E / Pitching wedge (http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/final-duel-sam-snead-vs-ben-hogan-1964), but that automatically mean it's a full shot. Swing speed & body action look close to full, but follow-through looks a bit 3/4 to me. Per Power Golf his PW was his 50-105 yard club and I expect in the 60's his e-wedge loft was considerably stronger than his old set so it likely would have had a deeper range. But I agree it's closer to the max range side than the min range side so it's not a great 50-yard wedge / pitch example. Here is Hogan at a more intermediate wedge distance:

 

 

[collapse]

14 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

Ben is set up that way because because he has an awkard lie with the ball above his feet and on a downslope. You don't need to close your stance to hit a low spinner with a wedge.

Hitting low penetrating wedges which spin to the left when hitting the green is what I was looking for and so often see on the PGA tour.The teaching video shows what is needed and I was able to go out and use the method getting the results I wanted almost immediately..not perfect but at least seeing it works.Then having BH hit that left spinning shot with what I see as using the same method made it all the more convincing.

[iacas]

10 hours ago, natureboy said:

How do you know what club he is using? It looks like that shot could be anywhere from 60 to 100 yards. Camera perspective shrinks relative size of distant objects.

IMO the camera is aimed right down the target line to which his stance is slightly closed (right foot drawn back a bit). The ball and dirt explosion (not the divot itself) at :09 both fly straight toward the center of the bunker that is visible to the right and rear. Can't tell from the pics, but expect the pin position is just left of that line or possibly even right of that line. Ben Hogan is not aiming for the center of the green from that close.

Oh, goodie, another camera angle discussion.

Suffice to say my position on this is that you can't tell much at all. You have no idea the distance nor focal length of the camera lens used. You have no good idea of its relative positioning left or right of the stance and/or target line.

There's a reason shots on TV all look like shanks even when they're pulls or straight at the flag… the camera presents optical illusions.

Given what you don't know about the camera, the lens, the filming location, the length of the shot, etc. the safest bet is to simply not draw any real conclusions from what you can see on that video.

You certainly can't put much weight on where the divot appears to fly.

[natureboy]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Oh, goodie, another camera angle discussion.

Suffice to say my position on this is that you can't tell much at all. You have no idea the distance nor focal length of the camera lens used. You have no good idea of its relative positioning left or right of the stance and/or target line.

There's a reason shots on TV all look like shanks even when they're pulls or straight at the flag… the camera presents optical illusions.

Given what you don't know about the camera, the lens, the filming location, the length of the shot, etc. the safest bet is to simply not draw any real conclusions from what you can see on that video.

You certainly can't put much weight on where the divot appears to fly.

Fair points, but you can clearly see the line of flight of the ball shortly after impact which is aligned with the direction of the explosion of dirt from below the divot which follows a different line than the divot chunk itself (which carries off along the swing arc to the left of the target line). In another clip Hogan talks about this specific shot with Gene Sarazen and says that he "drew it a little" - contrary to his straight intention.

Distance is more uncertain, but it was clearly an E-wedge and visually does look to be in the ~ 75-125 yard range.

[SavvySwede]

Well they zoom out a bit in this extended clip

 

[DrvFrShow]

 

[natureboy]

18 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

Well they zoom out a bit in this extended clip

 

The view back to Hogan from the green makes the downhill even steeper than I thought.