PGA Tour Players Not Marking Balls when In Position to Assist Another Player, #Backstopping

[fishgolf]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

I’m not incorrect.

Thats an action. Not a thought or intent.

And, rather than just trying desperately to win an argument with me for the first time, scroll back and read, for example, what Jimmy Walker and others have said about this.

Competitors agreeing to perform such an action is not intent - right, got it.

16 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Finish the rule: " ... they are disqualified."

Seems to me that competitors would want to avoid doing anything that could be interpreted by the Committee as breaching that rule.

Don't need that part.  They could shot by firing squad, or made to wear pink tutu's during their next round, it has nothing to do with their intent to perform the action and gain advantage.  But, yes I agree the majority avoid such action.  So just how many players have been DQ'd for backstopping?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, fishgolf said:

Competitors agreeing to perform such an action is not intent - right, got it.

Agreeing is an action.

Kindly also see the actions and words of pros like Jimmy Walker, Justin Thomas, etc.

[Aflighter]

I don't mark my ball unless guy asks me to or if its near his line ill mark so it doesn't get in the way of him possibly holing it.On a par 3 you don't run down and mark ball before next player hits.Pretty much same thing except its not practical.

[fishgolf]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Agreeing is an action.

 

Exactly... an action with the intent to exercise some advantage. 

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

Exactly... an action with the intent to exercise some advantage. 

No.

The advantage either exists and is realistic or it doesn’t/isn’t.

A ball sitting a foot behind the hole IS in a position to assist play. It’s that simple.

[fishgolf]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

No.

The advantage either exists and is realistic or it doesn’t/isn’t.

A ball sitting a foot behind the hole IS in a position to assist play. It’s that simple.

Actually yes. This whole discussion of backstopping would be pointless if there were no advantage involved.  A player leaves his ball in position, in a situation where he/she has plenty of opportunity to mark it, with the intention to aid a fellow player. Yup, it really is that simple.  Slightly off topic, but Jimmy Walker is a really cool name for a pro golfer - don't you think?

[Shorty]

9 hours ago, Aflighter said:

I don't mark my ball unless guy asks me to or if its near his line ill mark so it doesn't get in the way of him possibly holing it.On a par 3 you don't run down and mark ball before next player hits.Pretty much same thing except its not practical.

Not even close to being the same thing. The whole point is that when you're close to the green it is easy to mark your ball and by not doing it you're conspiring to cheat.

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

Actually yes. This whole discussion of backstopping would be pointless if there were no advantage involved.

Dude, knock it off. You were arguing that the rule was about "intent." It is not, and I was demonstrating in ways I thought were pretty clear that it's about the actual facts: where the ball is, where the players are, whether there's an advantage to be had (via a ball assisting). A player can "intend" for his ball to "assist" all he wants… it still has to be in a position to assist. It's not a violation of the rules if a player's ball 50 yards from the hole beside a bunker prevents another player's ball from 120 yards away from going in the bunker, but it is reasonable to say a ball is in a position to assist when a player is chipping from off the green or playing out of a greenside bunker, the possible assisting ball is two feet behind and slightly right of the hole. And then it's reasonable to say that he's failing in his obligation to the field if he's standing around waiting for the guy to hit, or even if he doesn't say "hold up, I've gotta mark that."

These guys aren't stupid. They'd absolutely have marked some of those golf balls in match play, particularly in the Ryder or Presidents Cups.

Again it's about a ball in a position to ASSIST PLAY. Several times this year the advantage has been realized, but as you should know it doesn't have to even result in an actual advantage (via the backstopping ball being hit) for it to be a breach of the rules, and a failure of the obligation to protect the field. You get that, right?

53 minutes ago, fishgolf said:

A player leaves his ball in position, in a situation where he/she has plenty of opportunity to mark it, with the intention to aid a fellow player.

It's not about intent. It's about whether the ball is in a position to assist or not: players of all levels are obligated to protect the field and mark it.

Besides, if you want to argue actual intent… once again, several have come right out and admitted to it.

[colin007]

@iacas, do you see anything concrete being done about this in the near future?

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, colin007 said:

@iacas, do you see anything concrete being done about this in the near future?

No. The USGA kinda tries not to step on the PGA Tour's toes.

Perhaps some things are being done behind the scenes that we don't know about, but there's little upside for either organization to call out or make waves with the other.

[Aflighter]

16 hours ago, Shorty said:

Not even close to being the same thing. The whole point is that when you're close to the green it is easy to mark your ball and by not doing it you're conspiring to cheat.

Well I've been playing long time and in tournaments and until past year or so I never heard of anyone having problem with it.

After hearing what Walker said it does look like they intentionally do it just to try and help others.To me I wouldn't just cause I'm not thinking of it as trying to help others.

[Vinsk]

7 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Well I've been playing long time and in tournaments and until past year or so I never heard of anyone having problem with it.

🤦‍♂️

[Aflighter]

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

🤦‍♂️

Slapping your head I see.

[Shorty]

9 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

Slapping your head I see.

Because you said you've "never heard of  people having a problem with it".

This after pages of discussion about cheating not being something that is OK just because it doesn't bother you.

In every rules discussion there are people like you who seem to think that if your friends choose to ignore a rule it's OK and others are making a big deal over nothing.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Shorty

[Aflighter]

1 minute ago, Shorty said:

Because you said you've "never heard of  people having a problem with it".

This after pages of discussion about cheating not being something that is OK just because it doesn't bother you.

You must be a young person.Watched and played golf long time I never,repeat never heard anyone having a problem with it until this past year and last year.Never heard any commentator say a word about until last year I think.By the way not marking ball isn't cheating.

[Shorty]

2 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

You must be a young person.Watched and played golf long time I never,repeat never heard anyone having a problem with it until this past year and last year.Never heard any commentator say a word about until last year I think.By the way not marking ball isn't cheating.

Because it has recently crept into the PGATour and it's a way of players sucking up to each other. It's not something that has been happening for long.

Doing something that gives another player an advantage that the whole field doesn't have is cheating.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Aflighter said:

You must be a young person.Watched and played golf long time I never,repeat never heard anyone having a problem with it until this past year and last year.Never heard any commentator say a word about until last year I think.By the way not marking ball isn't cheating.

You got a lot wrong in a short space.

1. He’s not young.
2. Just because you’re ignorant to something doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.
3. It absolutely can be cheating.

[brocks]

1 hour ago, Aflighter said:

You must be a young person.Watched and played golf long time I never,repeat never heard anyone having a problem with it until this past year and last year.Never heard any commentator say a word about until last year I think.By the way not marking ball isn't cheating.

I'm an old person, and have watched golf since the 50's, but I was recently out of the country for a couple of years and watched very little during that time.  When I came back last year, I saw some players not mark their ball, and I wondered what the heck was going on --- were they on the clock?  When I heard a commentator talk about backstopping, I literally couldn't believe it --- how on earth is that not a penalty?  

I still can't believe that players are not getting penalized for it.  You get penalized for giving advice, or indicating a line, and IMO backstopping is much worse.