Big money ruling Hawaii Golf now?

[Coronagolfman]

Happened to be doing some online checking about status of (1) Princeville Prince Course, (2) Makena Course and (3) Experience at Koele Course.

Seems that all three of the those course are still "in timeout" or "in rennovation" or at present are awaiting decisions on if the courses should be made private, be rennovated and reopened or simply allowed to be reclaimed by the forces of nature.

Yet on the Big Island there appears to be enough interest in "rich man's golf" to support two relatively new private courses just up the hill from the Four Seasons at Hualalei or at Kapalua where supposedly Tom Fazio is building a new private course on a combination of some of the remains of the former Village course and some new land.

Not naive enough to expect a return of the "glory years" of resort golf in Hawaii in the 90's where green fees at even the best resort courses were very reasonable with the idea that such rates would lure guests to the various resorts where they would spend freely - but from the view of simply being a player who enjoyed all of the courses mentioned above at one time it seems a shame that such wonderful and unique courses are not available for play.

Or am I simply just not understanding that the market for resort golf (or even private golf for that matter) in Hawaii has gone from one where golf was seen as a draw for the resorts to one where there are a few select properties where most of the "rich and famous" hang out that are getting all of the attention (Hualalei and Kapalua for instance) while the properties mentioned above are simply considered as marginal at this time unless somebody can find a way to attract elite customers to them? Is it no longer just enough to have a very good golf course for resort play for middle-class vactioners as opposed to having an elite development with sumptuous 2nd or 3rd residences for millionaires on an expensive or even private course?

[Golfingdad]

Planning a Maui trip for June and I also had trouble finding info on Makena.  Seemed to me at the time that they were renovating it and the land around it into new homes and a private CC.

Ill end up playing Kapalua and maybe one or both of the Kaanapali courses since that is where we are staying. :)

[Hardspoon]

5 hours ago, Coronagolfman said:

there are a few select properties where most of the "rich and famous" hang out that are getting all of the attention (Hualalei and Kapalua for instance)

 

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Ill end up playing Kapalua

Ah, what it must be like to be rich and famous! 

 

[iSank]

It has been sad to see the demise of the Experience at Koele. We've played that course a ton as we go over to Lanai quite a bit. The Challenge at Manele went from $25-75 up to $250 then I think $50 off for kamaaina. I don't expect to play either anytime soon. 

We have been looking at Kapalua and I think it's $199 after 1pm but haven't secured a tee time yet. We will be playing the Kaanapali courses in June. But your point is correct, it's getting expensive, seems if a course is connected to a 4 seasons the rate jumps to that $250, then all the neighbors adjust. We just played Koolina for $85 which is the highest we paid there. 

See you out there,

iSank

[Coronagolfman]

I can see where the arrival of the Plantation course helped to make Kapalua "the place to play" on Maui - it is a spectacular and unique course that, based upon its size and expansive nature, probably is double (or more) the cost to maintain versus a normal course like its predecessor the Kapalua Bay course. 

And given the fact that Kapalua is at the north end of the crowded Lahaina "strip" with its resort hotels, condos and residences and the fact that Kapalua has a large contingent of upscale hotel rooms and condos, not surprising that green fees at the Plantation are in the $200's.  And while I had always felt the Village course at Kapalua was far more fun and had many more dramatic and beautiful vistas than the "Palm Springs condos in the Islands" Bay Course, there was never any way Kapalua management would have not favored the Village over the Bay for retirement given the amount of condos on the latter course and the two holes that skim by the ocean.

I suppose it's all a matter of what the traffic will bear - certainly the Challenge at Manele is spectacular but with only 2.5 hotels on Lanai (Hotel Lanai is more what one might call a Motel in conventional terms) one might think that getting $200+ for a green fee is a bit much.  Of course, the catch might be that for that course in order to meet maintenance costs and given a small amount of rounds per day you need to get the maximum dollar to keep the place going. Will be interesting to see what happens with the Nicklaus re-shaping of the Koele course as the holes up on the top of the property offer some amazing views in a very pristine natural setting compared to what had been a pretty pedestrian nine holes down on the lower slopes behind Lanai City - is island "King" Larry Ellison going to try and breathe some life into Lanai or is he simply going to be content just viewing the island from afar from one of his expensive sailing craft?

 

[dave s]

Was just on Maui in December and played a couple of times.  I can report that a Maui Muni called Maui Nui, had a full tee sheet every day I was there.  From sun up to sun down, the course was full.  Rates there aren't inexpensive, but nowhere near what one would pay to play at Kapalua, Wailea or even Makena courses.

I've had family on Maui since the 80s.  We played Kapalua, (when the Izusu PGA tournament was held there) for resident rate of like $50!  What has worked best for me is staying at one of the resorts that has guest rates at places like Wailea or Makena and we just play there. Kapalua?  Too rich for my wallet!  It's so beautiful, I certainly didn't mind playing the same place, or group of courses, multiple times.  Also, we're on vacation so sleeping in, having breakfast then lounging by the pool or at the beach and playing golf in the afternoon provides the best rates we've found.

Something else I've learned about Maui.  Maui is a COUNTY of Hawaii that has fewer than 150K full time residents.  In 2014, 2.4 million tourists visited the island.  Does HI want to cater to the small fraction of residents who might play golf, or the small fraction of the 2.4 million visitors who play golf each year?  As far as I know, Maui hasn't done ANYTHING to make the island a 'golf destination' by providing a reciprocal (among courses) golf stay-and-play package.

They could certainly do a better job making Maui (or Oahu) a 'golf destination.'

dave

[Coronagolfman]

Dave S:

I hear you - in the late 80's and early 90's we used to have a foursome go every other year over to Kapalua, rent a villa for 4 for about $1600-$2000 for a week and that included unlimited golf at the Village and Bay courses.  We'd play 36 a couple of days and one time played 54 in one day on the Village (even managed to switch the route around a bit so we finished on the fabulous 12th with that view of Molokai across the channel).  Now the Village course is nothing more than hiking trails .............

 

[Buckeyebowman]

Excuse me, but I'm getting the impression that some feel that you need something other than just being in Hawaii to constitute an "attraction"! HUH?! After all, you don't need to go all the way there to find expensive golf.

And, as I understand it, except for those that have been "grandfathered" in, there is no such thing as land "ownership" in Hawaii. You can do long term leases for 50 or 100 years, but the original owners, or their heirs or assigns, retain possession.

[Hardspoon]

4 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

And, as I understand it, except for those that have been "grandfathered" in, there is no such thing as land "ownership" in Hawaii. You can do long term leases for 50 or 100 years, but the original owners, or their heirs or assigns, retain possession.

http://www.hawaiilife.com/articles/2010/07/understanding-fee-simple/

http://hawaiianhomesearch.com/blog/leasehold-vs-fee-simple/

Interesting.  Didn't realize that New York and Florida had similar laws (but I guess less common since real estate is more available, relatively speaking).

[iSank]

38 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

http://www.hawaiilife.com/articles/2010/07/understanding-fee-simple/

http://hawaiianhomesearch.com/blog/leasehold-vs-fee-simple/

Interesting.  Didn't realize that New York and Florida had similar laws (but I guess less common since real estate is more available, relatively speaking).

I do not know the % but we own our humble properties out right. Or as stated above fee simple. I would never buy leasehold and if the place I wanted was LH then I'd offer to buy the lease or move on. It was not that long ago (well it's been 156 years or so) when all land was owned by the monarchy. And then the way land was parced out was anything but "fair" whatever fair means.

hey but it's a fun game, and there's a lot of good golf to be played in Hawaii.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 5/20/2016 at 11:19 PM, Hardspoon said:

http://www.hawaiilife.com/articles/2010/07/understanding-fee-simple/

http://hawaiianhomesearch.com/blog/leasehold-vs-fee-simple/

Interesting.  Didn't realize that New York and Florida had similar laws (but I guess less common since real estate is more available, relatively speaking).

The reason I wrote what I did, is that I used to be in the wine business. In that time I became acquainted with the McGoon family who owned outright some acreage near downtown Honolulu. They traded the ownership of those few acres (don't know the exact number), for 28,000 acres of property in northern California! It encompasses the entire AVA (American Viticultural Area) of the Guenoc Valley, and there they established Guenoc Estate Vineyard & Winery. They gave me to understand that fee simple ownership of land in Hawaii these days is almost impossible, even if you're a billionaire. The land is too valuable! Why would the original owners sell it?

[iSank]

15 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Why would the original owners sell it?

Court order in some cases. Bishop estates which was and is one of the largest land owners (Google great Mahele) lost a case in the 90's over lease hold practices and it seems since then that they have been selling. Kinda cool to be the 2nd land owner listed; Kamehameha then you. 

According to the Honolulu board of realtors 12% of the condos and 2% of the single family homes that are for sale are leasehold. So it's not as widespread as I was thinking.

I was involved with property sales for a little bit and I do remember one California Dr quoting mark twain then saying if you can buy a trash can in Hawaii do it.

we could uncork a bottle of Guenoc and talk Hawaii real estate for a while, there's always someone willing to sell and usually a buyer. Frustrated with a $299 fee for Kapalua we are just gonna play a different course when we're on Maui next month. The plantation course is sweet but not 299 x 2 sweet this year.

Aloha,

iSank

[Buckeyebowman]

My buddy and his new bride spent their honeymoon on the north shore of Oahu at Turtle Bay Resort. There was a course very near by that made his mouth water. His wife said he should check it out, maybe he could play. He did, and he told me the price tag blew his mind! They were already dropping a ton on the honeymoon and he figured if he went golfing, the wife would go shopping, and that would blow the budget right out of the water!

[iSank]

The Palmer course at Turtle Bay is nice, we're playing there Sunday. Kamaaina rate is $75 but we do this annual deal with them so we pay $55. Cost wise I believe that course and Koolina take the cake on Oh-ah-who, which compared to Maui/Lanai or even resorts on the Big Island is really not that bad. We joke about working at a course in retirement so we can afford to play. 

[Buckeyebowman]

Does Kamaaina mean Hawaiian resident?

[Golfingdad]

8 hours ago, iSank said:

Court order in some cases. Bishop estates which was and is one of the largest land owners (Google great Mahele) lost a case in the 90's over lease hold practices and it seems since then that they have been selling. Kinda cool to be the 2nd land owner listed; Kamehameha then you. 

According to the Honolulu board of realtors 12% of the condos and 2% of the single family homes that are for sale are leasehold. So it's not as widespread as I was thinking.

I was involved with property sales for a little bit and I do remember one California Dr quoting mark twain then saying if you can buy a trash can in Hawaii do it.

we could uncork a bottle of Guenoc and talk Hawaii real estate for a while, there's always someone willing to sell and usually a buyer. Frustrated with a $299 fee for Kapalua we are just gonna play a different course when we're on Maui next month. The plantation course is sweet but not 299 x 2 sweet this year.

Aloha,

iSank

I'm going next month as well.  There is a deal right now ... two days of unlimited golf at Kapalua (either course) on the weekend (Fri-Sun) for $445 ($395 if you're staying at Kapalua).  You could really get the "per 18" price down if you have all day to play. :)

Heck, just playing Plantation twice, you're saving over $150.

[iSank]

13 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Does Kamaaina mean Hawaiian resident?

Yea, sorry about that, they wanna see a HI drivers license, sometimes on Maui they wanna see a Maui address on that license. 

 

Im gonna look into that Kapalua deal, I do enjoy both the bay and plantation courses. Thanks for the heads up on that.

[Buckeyebowman]

Kinda what I figured. Heck, if I want to get the "resident" rate at Mill Creek I have to show!