Michelle Wie SF Gate article is so poignant

[natureboy]

51 minutes ago, natureboy said:

On long game, in 2015 and this year she's average or below in total driving while still being top 30 in distance. Length and accuracy are both important and accuracy might be even more of a premium in the LPGA than the PGA because of the upper body strength factor for getting through the rough with speed. Perhaps a big factor in why she was ranked 48th in GIR in 2015 and toward the bottom this year. If you take her GIR into account she may actually be an above-average putter despite the focus on her unusual technique.

Slight correction @GolfLug.

Looking at 2014, 2015 and 2016 so far, Wie's driving distance has been about the same. Top 30 in distance and below average in Fwy% with a drop from about rank 130 to ~ 160 in accuracy. My read of the total driving is that she was above average driver in 2014, middle of the pack in 2015, and near the bottom this year.

The biggest difference was in 2014 she was a GIR machine. Despite a weighted rank of about 50th in total driving, she was ranked 3rd in GIR. My estimation of relative ranking put her as 1st in approach play that year and 3rd in overall ballstriking. 2015 she dropped to 48th in GIR, and in 2016 to 141st. Her relative putting rank (accounting for relative ballstriking skill) actually improved each year since her Open win year from middle of pack to above average.

Something is off in her iron play or her slight dips each year in driving accuracy has had a non-linear effect on maintaining the high GIR % she had in 2014.

Over the same period, Ko has maintained a relative Top 5 approach play and Top 10 overall ballstriking while improving her relative putting rank from above average to Top 20. In 2014 when Lexi was out of the Top 10 in scoring, her accuracy was near the bottom, but 2015-2016 it's been average (with plus distance) and she's been in the Top 10. May be that accuracy is relatively more important in LPGA than PGA though distance still maintains a slight overall edge.

Edited July 13, 2016 by natureboy

[Gunther]

Pretty sure Wie and Lexi are about the longest out there still, at least top 10. But Wie uses a ton of 3 woods off tees, even on those measured holes.  So, I think she must not trust the driver much and obviously that affects her driving distance.  Doesn't sound like it's helped her accuracy either, based on the stats you're citing.  Maybe she just needs to work on the driver and everything else will fall into place?  Couldn't be that easy, could it?

[GolfLug]

14 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Slight correction @GolfLug.

Looking at 2014, 2015 and 2016 so far, Wie's driving distance has been about the same. Top 30 in distance and below average in Fwy% with a drop from about rank 130 to ~ 160 in accuracy. My read of the total driving is that she was above average driver in 2014, middle of the pack in 2015, and near the bottom this year.

The biggest difference was in 2014 she was a GIR machine. Despite a weighted rank of about 50th in total driving, she was ranked 3rd in GIR. My estimation of relative ranking put her as 1st in approach play that year and 3rd in overall ballstriking. 2015 she dropped to 48th in GIR, and in 2016 to 141st. Her relative putting rank (accounting for relative ballstriking skill) actually improved each year since her Open win year from middle of pack to above average.

Something is off in her iron play or her slight dips each year in driving accuracy has had a non-linear effect on maintaining the high GIR % she had in 2014.

Over the same period, Ko has maintained a relative Top 5 approach play and Top 10 overall ballstriking while improving her relative putting rank from above average to Top 20.

Well, one thing is clear - she is very capable of meteoric rise. She is already a physical force. We all know, a slight correction here and there and it can suddenly click. Especially at this level. I just don't get all this 'washed up' talk from articles like this.  

2 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Pretty sure Wie and Lexi are about the longest out there still, at least top 10. But Wie uses a ton of 3 woods off tees, even on those measured holes.  So, I think she must not trust the driver much and obviously that affects her driving distance.  Doesn't sound like it's helped her accuracy either, based on the stats you're citing.  Maybe she just needs to work on the driver and everything else will fall into place?  Couldn't be that easy, could it?

Well, not easy, but it definitely could be that simple. I am rooting for her.  

[natureboy]

16 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Pretty sure Wie and Lexi are about the longest out there still, at least top 10. But Wie uses a ton of 3 woods off tees, even on those measured holes.  So, I think she must not trust the driver much and obviously that affects her driving distance.  Doesn't sound like it's helped her accuracy either, based on the stats you're citing.  Maybe she just needs to work on the driver and everything else will fall into place?  Couldn't be that easy, could it?

Maybe?

Richie 3 Jack did an article indicating that (for everyone who isn't Henrik Stenson) 3 wood may actually decrease accuracy because it tends to curve more. But it may be the strategic play to avoid choke points, hazards, or negotiate a dogleg.

[iacas]

On July 13, 2016 at 0:08 PM, natureboy said:

Petterson doesn't have a ton of definition either, but a lot more mass in the thigh. Michelle looks a bit more 'delicate' around the thigh bone (hardly any hamstring definition) than many (but hardly all) of her competitors. I think that may actually enhance her 'elegant' look, but detract slightly from her athleticism on the course - and possibly susceptibility to injury.

If you have less power in the legs then you compensate with extreme turn from flexibility or extra upper body effort. IMO a lost opportunity for 'easier' power that may be less wearing on the body over thousands of swings.

I feel as though you haven't seen Michelle's legs in person. They're not thin. They're attractive, and not at all fat, but they're fairly "meaty" too. Muscular. Just not super defined… but most women's legs aren't necessarily super defined. Like Suzann.

[Pendragon]

On 7/12/2016 at 6:50 PM, atb5079 said:

So someone please do elaborate on all the hate for Leadbetter as I am very curious? Have the times passed him by? Or what exactly is the reason for all the hate?

I have no feelings towards Leadbetter one way or the other. It does seem like most of his higher profile clients are names out of the past, e.g., Faldo, Norman, Price, but Wie's been with him a long time. Considering her recent poor performance, though, you'd think that might warrant a change in instructors. How could things be worse than they are now?

After missing the cut this week in England, she's not played on the weekend now in 9 of her last 11 events, and she was T56 and T42 when she did make the cut. She's #115 in money, #136 in scoring average, and #135 in GIR...it can't get too much worse than that. I suppose she has nowhere to go but up. Dumping Leadbetter couldn't hurt, could it? Taking a step away from her parents, as many have suggested, might not hurt, either.  

[iacas]

On July 31, 2016 at 0:56 PM, Pendragon said:

Taking a step away from her parents, as many have suggested, might not hurt, either.  

What indications do you have that she is still ruled or super-close or however you want to phrase it with or by her parents these days, anyway?

[Pendragon]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

What indications do you have that she is still ruled or super-close or however you want to phrase it with or by her parents these days, anyway?

I said "Taking a step away from her parents, as many have suggested, might not hurt, either". Are you claiming that many have not suggested that very thing?  A recent article by Tod Leonard (attachment below) in the San Diego Tribune (7/6/16) might help to clarify things in this regard. An excerpt from that piece follows:

"A few years ago former player Dottie Pepper questioned Wie's inner drive to be great, to have the killer instinct. That still seems to be the case, most evident by her choice- or maybe she doesn't have one?- to keep her parents close by her side. To see Wie's mother, Bo, work with her on her swing at the range at tournaments is to cringe and wonder where it all went wrong."

 

 

 

Struggling Michelle Wie at career crossroads at age 26 _ SanDiegoUnionTribune.com.html

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Pendragon said:

Are you claiming that many have not suggested that very thing?

No. Reading what I wrote is all you need there. I made no claims; I only asked a question.

[ScouseJohnny]

Ah, Nike's golf page: http://www.nike.com/us/en_us/c/golf

The first featured golfer to be listed is a guy from Northern Ireland, who, these days, seems to putt like a 16 handicapper having a bad round on the greens.

The next featured golfer is a major winner from 2008 who is likely headed for retirement, very soon.

Then there's a big picture of Michelle Wie in a "Nike Ace Swing Polo;" whatever her talents, I seriously doubt she's rooting around for quarters down the back of her sofa. Kudos to her for fully monetizing her abilities, and making out like a bandit in the process.

 

 

[natureboy]

On 7/16/2016 at 8:58 PM, iacas said:

I feel as though you haven't seen Michelle's legs in person. They're not thin. They're attractive, and not at all fat, but they're fairly "meaty" too. Muscular. Just not super defined…

I like 'em too. I was speaking more relative to some of the other 'power' players. And less about definition vs. mass.

but they're still different from this:

and this:

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

You're right. Gerina is less muscular than Michelle. She has a higher body fat %.

Tone doesn't always mean muscle. Hell, look at Tiger's legs. I'm far, far more muscular than he is in the legs. He's commented on that fact.

[natureboy]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're right. Gerina is less muscular than Michelle. She has a higher body fat %.

Tone doesn't always mean muscle. Hell, look at Tiger's legs. I'm far, far more muscular than he is in the legs. He's commented on that fact.

While the body fat % difference may be somewhat true (a few percentage points). So what? Golf is not an endurance sport..

Total muscle mass is the difference I see with Michelle's legs, though there are many other players who are built leaner like her. When you say 'Tone doesn't always mean muscle' it sounds like you are agreeing with me as Michelle looks a bit more 'toned' with her lower body fat %, but Lexi, Gerina, and Ariya look like they have more powerful legs.

Gerina and Lexi have clearly larger quad and hamstring muscles than Michelle. More quad mass might have helped save Tiger's knee.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

While the body fat % difference may be somewhat true (a few percentage points). So what? Golf is not an endurance sport..

So what? Buddy, you're the one trying to compare how powerful or strong someone's legs are by looking at pictures of them.

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Gerina and Lexi have clearly larger quad and hamstring muscles than Michelle. More quad mass might have helped save Tiger's knee.

Gerina has more FAT on top of her thighs than Michelle does. I'll grant you that much.

But it's okay. You're still hammering away trying to "prove" via unprovable means what you originally said, even though your "evidence" seems to consist of what you think you see in pictures…

On July 12, 2016 at 4:28 PM, natureboy said:

I have to say I think Michelle has a lovely, statuesque figure but looks to me like she doe not do much in the way of cross-training. Her legs are long but not particularly defined / muscular compared to a lot of fellow pros.

Keep on keepin' on, man… Or better yet, don't, because you don't really have much insight into Michelle's physical fitness, workout regimen, strength, etc.

[natureboy]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

So what? Buddy, you're the one trying to compare how powerful or strong someone's legs are by looking at pictures of them.

Gerina has more FAT on top of her thighs than Michelle does. I'll grant you that much.

But it's okay. You're still hammering away trying to "prove" via unprovable means what you originally said, even though your "evidence" seems to consist of what you think you see in pictures…

Keep on keepin' on, man… Or better yet, don't, because you don't really have much insight into Michelle's physical fitness, workout regimen, strength, etc.

Michelle has more fat than you think in her legs, and Gerina / Lexi have more muscle than you think. You don't get a convex curve like they do in the hamstring if their leg is mostly fat.

Even athletic women rarely drop into the same body fat ranges as athletic men unless they are elite level long-distance runners. Michelle does not have that degree of extreme 'tone' / definition. I'd take Gerina, Lexi, or Ariya in a max squat contest any day. Have you personally trained with Michelle or just seen her in person at tournaments?

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Michelle has more fat than you think in her legs, and Gerina / Lexi have more muscle than you think. You don't get a convex curve like they do in the hamstring if their leg is mostly fat.

33 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Even athletic women rarely drop into the same body fat ranges as athletic men unless they are elite level long-distance runners. Michelle does not have that degree of extreme 'tone' / definition. I'd take Gerina, Lexi, or Ariya in a max squat contest any day. Have you personally trained with Michelle or just seen her in person at tournaments?

You just don't get it… Enough.

You don't really know what you're talking about at all. You're looking at pictures.

And then speculating on the cause and possible prevention of injury? Please.

[natureboy]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're looking at pictures.

AFAIC pro photographer as good a perspective as being inside the ropes.

Edited August 2, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

AFAIC pro photographer as good a perspective as being inside the ropes.

Look, you keep looking at pictures and making huge assumptions or leaps about how fit Michelle Wie's legs are and how that may or may not have affected her injury history (which includes injuries to her wrists, etc.). You're guessing, and the guesses don't even seem to be very well educated.

Me? I'm not a big fan of rampant, ill-informed speculation.