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My Swing (deason)

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Originally Posted by deason

Agree on the divot analogy, this is classic Nicklaus theory. But as the video footage shows i'm at best parallel to hands and ball and rarely hands before ball to get some decent compression.

Explain to me why Kuchar, Hogan, Byrd all have had successes with such a flat swing? Would you recommend that change?

BTW I don't want this post where i'm gaining some advice to become a one/two plane argument.


Personally whether your ideal swing is one or two plane, or if your model is Ben Hogan or Sam Snead, is of no consequence to me. I commented on how having the right elbow tucked into the side with every club would personally be a power drain for me. I also mentioned getting the bottom of your divot ahead of the ball and involving your hips more.

Look one of your guys for an example. Jonathan Byrd swings very flat with some pop in this swing.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by deason

Agree on the divot analogy, this is classic Nicklaus theory. But as the video footage shows i'm at best parallel to hands and ball and rarely hands before ball to get some decent compression.

Explain to me why Kuchar, Hogan, Byrd all have had successes with such a flat swing? Would you recommend that change?

BTW I don't want this post where i'm gaining some advice to become a one/two plane argument.

Personally whether your ideal swing is one or two plane, or if your model is Ben Hogan or Sam Snead, is of no consequence to me. I commented on how having the right elbow tucked into the side with every club would personally be a power drain for me. I also mentioned getting the bottom of your divot ahead of the ball and involving your hips more.

Look one of your guys for an example. Jonathan Byrd swings very flat with some pop in this swing.

Having the right elbow tucked into their side with every club is one of the most important downswing pieces in the golf swing. On the backswing, having your arms separate from your torso just brings more of a timing element into the swing. Just because great players like Vijay and Jack can time it well through years and years of devoted practice, doesn't mean an amateur should start doing this too.

Telling an amateur to start lifting their arms off their body to complete the backswing is poor advice.

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by deason

Agree on the divot analogy, this is classic Nicklaus theory. But as the video footage shows i'm at best parallel to hands and ball and rarely hands before ball to get some decent compression.

Explain to me why Kuchar, Hogan, Byrd all have had successes with such a flat swing? Would you recommend that change?

BTW I don't want this post where i'm gaining some advice to become a one/two plane argument.

Personally whether your ideal swing is one or two plane, or if your model is Ben Hogan or Sam Snead, is of no consequence to me. I commented on how having the right elbow tucked into the side with every club would personally be a power drain for me. I also mentioned getting the bottom of your divot ahead of the ball and involving your hips more.

Look one of your guys for an example. Jonathan Byrd swings very flat with some pop in this swing.

Having the right elbow tucked into their side with every club is one of the most important downswing pieces in the golf swing. On the backswing, having your arms separate from your torso just brings more of a timing element into the swing. Just because great players like Vijay and Jack can time it well through years and years of devoted practice, doesn't mean an amateur should start doing this too.

Telling an amateur to start lifting their arms off their body to complete the backswing is poor advice.



Downswing? No, kidding. Who said anything about the downswing?

Just watch the Byrd video and make up your own mind about timing - every good golf swing relies on timing unless you're happy with a 180 yard drive.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by deason

Agree on the divot analogy, this is classic Nicklaus theory. But as the video footage shows i'm at best parallel to hands and ball and rarely hands before ball to get some decent compression.

Explain to me why Kuchar, Hogan, Byrd all have had successes with such a flat swing? Would you recommend that change?

BTW I don't want this post where i'm gaining some advice to become a one/two plane argument.

Personally whether your ideal swing is one or two plane, or if your model is Ben Hogan or Sam Snead, is of no consequence to me. I commented on how having the right elbow tucked into the side with every club would personally be a power drain for me. I also mentioned getting the bottom of your divot ahead of the ball and involving your hips more.

Look one of your guys for an example. Jonathan Byrd swings very flat with some pop in this swing.

Having the right elbow tucked into their side with every club is one of the most important downswing pieces in the golf swing. On the backswing, having your arms separate from your torso just brings more of a timing element into the swing. Just because great players like Vijay and Jack can time it well through years and years of devoted practice, doesn't mean an amateur should start doing this too.

Telling an amateur to start lifting their arms off their body to complete the backswing is poor advice.

Downswing? No, kidding. Who said anything about the downswing?

Just watch the Byrd video and make up your own mind about timing - every good golf swing relies on timing unless you're happy with a 180 yard drive.


You never specified. You have to be specific or the tip can be easily misinterpreted. That's your fault, not the reader's.

And yea, if you don't lift your arms off your body, you'll hit only 180 yards drives Come on. Every golf swing relies on timing but the point of instruction is to reduce that reliance on timing as much as possible.

Also, if you want to demonstrate lifting of the arms on the backswing, at least put a DTL view, not a Face-On. You can barely see the lifting from that angle. But on the plus side, I do have a weird hankering to go buy some Polo shirts.

Byrd doesn't even lift very much at all. At least compared to a guy like like Vijay.

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

You never specified. You have to be specific or the tip can be easily misinterpreted. That's your fault, not the reader's.

And yea, if you don't lift your arms off your body, you'll hit only 180 yards drives  Come on. Every golf swing relies on timing but the point of instruction is to reduce that reliance on timing as much as possible.

Also, if you want to demonstrate lifting of the arms on the backswing, at least put a DTL view, not a Face-On. You can barely see the lifting from that angle. But on the plus side, I do have a weird hankering to go buy some Polo shirts.

Byrd doesn't even lift very much at all. At least compared to a guy like like Vijay.



Actually I think I did specify the backswing and if you look at the Byrd videos - or any Byrd video on youtube, a separation is pretty obvious from the face on view.

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He's a bit too flat yes, but IMO, this isn't a priority right now -- correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. The left arm should match the shoulder turn. But right now I feel that isn't the priority at the moment because his hips are swaying back so much and not moving forward at all, and his wrists are flipping with no forward lean of the shaft. One step at a time.

Picture 4.png

Kuchar's flat swing mostly matches his shoulder turn, but the OP is too flat.

Picture 5.png

Sean, if you would have said "get the left arm to match the shoulder turn," then I would have said "good point." But you didn't.

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

He's a bit too flat yes, but IMO, this isn't a priority right now -- correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. The left arm should match the shoulder turn. But right now I feel that isn't the priority at the moment because his hips are swaying back so much and not moving forward at all, and his wrists are flipping with no forward lean of the shaft. One step at a time.

Kuchar's flat swing mostly matches his shoulder turn, but the OP is too flat.

Sean, if you would have said "get the left arm to match the shoulder turn," then I would have said "good point." But you didn't.



What I did or didn't say becomes apparent when reading my comments objectively.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

What I did or didn't say becomes apparent when reading my comments objectively.


Your comments were just too vague IMO.

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FWIW, Sean, you are certainly onto something here. His arms are too low. My point though was to address that later, after I felt more confident he understood how to get his hips and handle forward. Anyway, please continue to give your advice as it makes the thread more interesting. I just wanted the point to be a bit clearer.

The arms need to ascend more. Anyway, I didn't think that was a priority, but I stand corrected because they are certainly too low. Again though, I was hoping to address that after his hips stopped swaying back so much and instead went forward, with some forward shaft lean at impact. I didn't want to overwhelm him with another piece, but maybe this piece isn't too difficult to add here in this case. The whole "back, up, and in" backswing thing, where the OP needs more "up."

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

He's a bit too flat yes, but IMO, this isn't a priority right now -- correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. The left arm should match the shoulder turn. But right now I feel that isn't the priority at the moment because his hips are swaying back so much and not moving forward at all, and his wrists are flipping with no forward lean of the shaft. One step at a time.

Kuchar's flat swing mostly matches his shoulder turn, but the OP is too flat.

Sean, if you would have said "get the left arm to match the shoulder turn," then I would have said "good point." But you didn't.

This is where too much of a good thing can be overdone.  Yes he is too flat, notice how Kuchar has some space between his elbow and rib cage.  Still keeping pp#5 but there has to be some room for the elbow to move on the downswing.  Arms are too close to hit body, he'll have to lengthen his arms on the downswing just to hit the ball.  Also when the arms are that low the club can ascend.  Part of a power piece, club needs to have a certain amount of up and down.  In these swings the club is too shallow.

I have to agree with Sean here on the backswing.  Not saying he should necessarily look like Vijay but should be feeling it for now.  I would almost have him feel like he has a tee under his arm at set-up and that is COMES OUT on the backswing.  Basically, just from looking some of the video, the priority is both pieces, gotta have the hands ascend more on the bs and then get those feels that Jetfan was talking about.  In person I can def see working on downswing first, building some good feels and then going back and getting those arms higher.

And this measurement is just something I learned this summer.  We know pp#5 is trail arm pit but we can also give each upper arm their own pp's.

3 arm pp's, Upper, mid and lower,
P1- upper and mid
P2- Upper, mid and lower attach, think of the Hogan waggle
P3- all 3
P4- lose lower and half the mid
This is Morad type stuff, I personally don't think the lower/elbow has to connected from P1-2 but there is def 3- 4" from the elbow to the rib cage at P4.  Some guys like to say the elbow "orbits" the rib cage.

pressure point dance.jpg

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Thanks, Mike. I was aware of the arms being too low, but believed that weight and handle forward were more important to start with. But now I realize "more up" and "feel more Vijay" in his backswing is just as important as "hips forward, handle forward." I didn't want to overwhelm the OP, but now understand that in this case, this point was important to be made. Thanks again, as always.

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Thanks, Mike. I was aware of the arms being too low, but believed that weight and handle forward were more important to start with. But now I realize "more up" and "feel more Vijay" in his backswing is just as important as "hips forward, handle forward." I didn't want to overwhelm the OP, but now understand that in this case, this point was important to be made. Thanks again, as always.


The thing about this is his hands are so low that he's going to have a really hard time controlling his point of tangency and getting enough descent on the club. Shots will tend to curve and start on unpredictable lines because excessively flat swings actually increase the reliance on timing due to how sharply the path changes around the point of tangency.

Imagine two scenarios, both in the extreme. One has a player swinging 10 degrees from purely vertical, the other 10 degrees from purely horizontal.

The vertical swinger can hit down or up quite a bit and the d-plane won't tilt much at all. A purely vertical swing, for example, has no "D-Plane" in the sense I'm talking about - the club is always traveling the same direction. A ball hit four inches before the point of tangency might have a path that's 1 degree right, and four inches after (it would likely be on a tee! :D) might be 1 degree left.

Now imagine the really really flat circle, 10 degrees up from horizontal. A ball hit two inches behind might have the path going 10 degrees right and two inches in front of the point of tangency 10 degrees left.

The case could easily be made that the flatter swing - too flat, obviously - requires more timing because the face better be at a good angle relative to that +/- 10 degrees or else the shot's going way off line.

Sean, your swing is flatter than you seem to think, and just because you think you'd lose distance doesn't mean you've ever made a flatter swing properly. There's very little distance to be gained by lifting the arms. It's almost negligible.

Deason, how would I attack your swing? Just based on the videos on page 1... I agree that you have a few things to work on. The backswing, the hips forward, shaft lean.

The backswing and position at the top is bad enough I'd work there first. Maintaining pressure into your left foot during the backswing , I'd feel as if your right elbow never bends and that you do nothing but LIFT your hands as you turn your shoulders. You'll probably want to feel like Vijay or Jack for awhile. You don't want to actually swing like Vijay or Jack per se, but for awhile, you need to feel the exaggeration to get the hands to ascend. The right elbow will feel as if it's not moving around towards your shirt seam at all and is in fact moving away from your chest a little.

So weight forward, lift your hands, right arm stays very very straight, right elbow never moves around towards your side or back.

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This has a massive impact on Fundamental #1 of hitting the ball solid.

Not enough ascent, makes the club to shallow, basically, would be like just dragging the club on the ground during the backswing, impossible to hit it solid.

Makes the angle of approach too acute.

1. Hips forward and stay forward.

2. Get the left arm 'ride up' to the left collarbone / clavicle.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Thanks, Mike. I was aware of the arms being too low, but believed that weight and handle forward were more important to start with. But now I realize "more up" and "feel more Vijay" in his backswing is just as important as "hips forward, handle forward." I didn't want to overwhelm the OP, but now understand that in this case, this point was important to be made. Thanks again, as always.

The thing about this is his hands are so low that he's going to have a really hard time controlling his point of tangency and getting enough descent on the club. Shots will tend to curve and start on unpredictable lines because excessively flat swings actually increase the reliance on timing due to how sharply the path changes around the point of tangency.

Imagine two scenarios, both in the extreme. One has a player swinging 10 degrees from purely vertical, the other 10 degrees from purely horizontal.

The vertical swinger can hit down or up quite a bit and the d-plane won't tilt much at all. A purely vertical swing, for example, has no "D-Plane" in the sense I'm talking about - the club is always traveling the same direction. A ball hit four inches before the point of tangency might have a path that's 1 degree right, and four inches after (it would likely be on a tee! :D) might be 1 degree left.

Now imagine the really really flat circle, 10 degrees up from horizontal. A ball hit two inches behind might have the path going 10 degrees right and two inches in front of the point of tangency 10 degrees left.

The case could easily be made that the flatter swing - too flat, obviously - requires more timing because the face better be at a good angle relative to that +/- 10 degrees or else the shot's going way off line.

Sean, your swing is flatter than you seem to think, and just because you think you'd lose distance doesn't mean you've ever made a flatter swing properly. There's very little distance to be gained by lifting the arms. It's almost negligible.

Deason, how would I attack your swing? Just based on the videos on page 1... I agree that you have a few things to work on. The backswing, the hips forward, shaft lean.

The backswing and position at the top is bad enough I'd work there first. Maintaining pressure into your left foot during the backswing, I'd feel as if your right elbow never bends and that you do nothing but LIFT your hands as you turn your shoulders. You'll probably want to feel like Vijay or Jack for awhile. You don't want to actually swing like Vijay or Jack per se, but for awhile, you need to feel the exaggeration to get the hands to ascend. The right elbow will feel as if it's not moving around towards your shirt seam at all and is in fact moving away from your chest a little.

So weight forward, lift your hands, right arm stays very very straight, right elbow never moves around towards your side or back.



I meant (guess I was too vague) that without any separation between right elbow/bicep and torso on the way back, not referring the high-handed flying elbow gong show I had going on at the start of my swing thread. I'll never have Jason Dufner's right arm position, but Vijay has so many moving parts that maintaining any degree of consistency would mean working out and hitting range balls every day of the week. I don't have that kind of time or level of interest - hence the winter tuneup/rebuild.

Anyway, Deason hit the jackpot today. There's a ton of good free information in this thread!!

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Anyway, Deason hit the jackpot today. There's a ton of good free information in this thread!!



Yea, he definitely did

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Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm showing deason how to hit a draw and Vijay plays a fade, so he's not really a good example here. His hands are also well above the plane in that photo (two plane swing) and I'm showing deason how to use a one plane, centered pivot. If you want to show him a two plane swing you should explain that more than just saying "do this."

Yes, his backswing needs work though I agree, but I'm trying to get his weight and handle forward first.



Vijay can play any shape he wants, and you've given plenty of good advice, it was just so much at once though. Getting stuck behind on a flat swing is just such a hard way to play golf, even if you're hitting down on the ball well. Anyway, just trying to help the guy, like you are.

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Originally Posted by walk18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm showing deason how to hit a draw and Vijay plays a fade, so he's not really a good example here. His hands are also well above the plane in that photo (two plane swing) and I'm showing deason how to use a one plane, centered pivot. If you want to show him a two plane swing you should explain that more than just saying "do this."

Yes, his backswing needs work though I agree, but I'm trying to get his weight and handle forward first.

Vijay can play any shape he wants, and you've given plenty of good advice, it was just so much at once though. Getting stuck behind on a flat swing is just such a hard way to play golf, even if you're hitting down on the ball well. Anyway, just trying to help the guy, like you are.

No, I know. We're both definitely on the same page now. I wish you would've said something like, "feel more like Vijay because there isn't enough 'up' in your backswing." I argued with you because you gave out the tip more in the literal sense rather than saying "feel this" and why. I was striving to get something more specific.

But certainly as a group we all nailed it, and deason can be thrilled to know his three biggest priorities at the practice range: 1) the backswing 2) hips forward 3) shaft lean

And over the past year or two it's been my thought that if you're going to go overboard with information with someone, doing it through the written word when they are sitting down and in the mood to read some golf tips is a good time for it. He can use the posts as a reference in the future as well. Certainly if I was standing next to the guy I would be more minimalist with it, unless of course he pressed me for more.

Thanks for the reply, Walk. I definitely don't want to be discouraging another member from contributing.

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Well guys what can I say, I've got Three pro's and a very enthusiatic bunch all arguing over my swing...does even Tiger Woods get this attention :) :)

My hand position and right shoulder at the top of the swing has always bugged me, it just has always seemed vunerable, and I beleive i've said this before is a reason I'm gash under preassure at my current level and ability.

I will be working on getting the hands higher as said most definately, and also working on the centered pivot, this quite clearly is another root cause leading to additional issues.

I might post some results tonight if it's worthy enough!

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