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Use of artificial light after dark


drmevo
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17 minutes ago, jlbos83 said:

There was a made-for-TV tournament called the Battle at Bighorn back in the early 2000s that finished under the lights several times.  Tiger was usually in it.

I can understand static lights that are the same for everyone.  That makes sense. It's when you have spectators or maybe a caddie shining the light that it seems like it could run afoul of the rules.  

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23 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I can understand static lights that are the same for everyone.  That makes sense. It's when you have spectators or maybe a caddie shining the light that it seems like it could run afoul of the rules.  

Did the other competitors in whatever tournament you're going on about get to play when it was still light out?

The competitors are being given no advantage nor is anything being done that might assist them with their play… since they could otherwise just stop playing and wait until it's morning and thus light again.

This seems like a pretty clear-cut case. The artificial device is doing what it does (providing light) so it's not a matter of using the device in an unusual manner. It's also not a laser pointer being used to indicate the line of play or anything… it's simply illuminating the golf course so a player can continue to play with enough light to see.

P.S. The player is not also in control of the lights. They're not offering direction, like "shine this beam precisely here so I can focus on it" or anything like that.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Maybe it boils down to whether or not you consider darkness part of "the elements."

Elements are defined in 14-2/0.5:

Sunlight, rain, wind, snow and other weather conditions.

They don't include darkness. I guess you could argue it's an "other weather condition", but that's a stretch...they specifically included sunlight, and didn't mention darkness.

 

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- John

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12 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Elements are defined in 14-2/0.5:

Sunlight, rain, wind, snow and other weather conditions.

They don't include darkness. I guess you could argue it's an "other weather condition", but that's a stretch...they specifically included sunlight, and didn't mention darkness.

Plus, they've had lit up golf courses for decades.

And if artificial light is illegal… at what point is it illegal? If I'm putting out within 200 yards of the clubhouse, and there is a wedding going on… is the light from the wedding enough to make my play illegal?

Imagine trying to legislate that.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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(edited)
2 hours ago, iacas said:

Did the other competitors in whatever tournament you're going on about get to play when it was still light out?

The competitors are being given no advantage nor is anything being done that might assist them with their play… since they could otherwise just stop playing and wait until it's morning and thus light again.

This seems like a pretty clear-cut case. The artificial device is doing what it does (providing light) so it's not a matter of using the device in an unusual manner. It's also not a laser pointer being used to indicate the line of play or anything… it's simply illuminating the golf course so a player can continue to play with enough light to see.

P.S. The player is not also in control of the lights. They're not offering direction, like "shine this beam precisely here so I can focus on it" or anything like that.

First, I'm sorry if I bothered you by continuing to post about this. As I said, I'm not trying to be argumentative. The whole artificial device thing and then the decisions regarding people creating shadows, etc., raised more questions in my mind. I couldn't care less if anyone gets penalized for this. 

Swirling in my mind are also things like play the course as you found it. It just seemed strange there was nothing addressing flashlights in the decisions.

One hypothetical and then I'll let it go.  Say you have a group on the green of the final hole during a competition. What if the spectators illuminate the hole for player A, giving him a better view of the slope, etc., than he would have had otherwise.  He holes out. When player B goes to putt, the lights are shut off (because the spectators are all jerks I guess).  Is that not an advantage? I know, I know, unlikely, but in the age of everyone having a flashlight in their pocket, quite possible, and it seems the rules and decisions often consider unlikely scenarios.

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Plus, they've had lit up golf courses for decades.

And if artificial light is illegal… at what point is it illegal? If I'm putting out within 200 yards of the clubhouse, and there is a wedding going on… is the light from the wedding enough to make my play illegal?

Imagine trying to legislate that.

You'll see in my post right before your first one that I said that a golf course that is lit up in the way you're describing makes sense to me in terms of the rules.

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4 minutes ago, drmevo said:

One hypothetical and then I'll let it go.  Say you have a group on the green of the final hole during a competition. What if the spectators illuminate the hole for player A, giving him a better view of the slope, etc., than he would have had otherwise.  He holes out. When player B goes to putt, the lights are shut off (because the spectators are all jerks I guess).  Is that not an advantage? I know, I know, unlikely, but in the age of everyone having a flashlight in their pocket, quite possible, and it seems the rules and decisions often consider unlikely scenarios.

Player B would probably have a good case that play should be suspended for darkness, given that Player A required artificial light to putt.

In the absence of that, I'd guess that in this specific case, you could consider Player A to have "directed" the use of the light.

- John

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12 minutes ago, drmevo said:

One hypothetical and then I'll let it go.  Say you have a group on the green of the final hole during a competition. What if the spectators illuminate the hole for player A, giving him a better view of the slope, etc., than he would have had otherwise.  He holes out. When player B goes to putt, the lights are shut off (because the spectators are all jerks I guess). 

Player B asks the Committee to suspend play due to darkness.

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Is a caddie using a flashlight to search for a specific player's ball also OK?  That seems different to me than general illumination by a tractor or something.  Although I guess it's the same idea - they could always just suspend play due to darkness, so it can't really gain an advantage.

- John

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6 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Player B would probably have a good case that play should be suspended for darkness, given that Player A required artificial light to putt.

 

4 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Player B asks the Committee to suspend play due to darkness.

Good point.  Say it's flipped then - they don't illuminate the green for A but do for B.  It hasn't gotten appreciably darker in that time. Did B not end up with the advantage?

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13 minutes ago, drmevo said:

First, I'm sorry if I bothered you by continuing to post about this.

No bother here.

13 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Swirling in my mind are also things like play the course as you found it. It just seemed strange there was nothing addressing flashlights in the decisions.

"The course" is not the light shining on the course. You can still play the course as you found it regardless of the time of day or the amount of light available.

13 minutes ago, drmevo said:

One hypothetical and then I'll let it go.  Say you have a group on the green of the final hole during a competition. What if the spectators illuminate the hole for player A, giving him a better view of the slope, etc., than he would have had otherwise.  He holes out. When player B goes to putt, the lights are shut off (because the spectators are all jerks I guess).  Is that not an advantage? I know, I know, unlikely, but in the age of everyone having a flashlight in their pocket, quite possible, and it seems the rules and decisions often consider unlikely scenarios.

As others said, Player B could suspend playing due to darkness. But I doubt such a scenario would ever really present itself.

13 minutes ago, drmevo said:

You'll see in my post right before your first one that I said that a golf course that is lit up in the way you're describing makes sense to me in terms of the rules.

My point was that golf courses can have artificial light on them at various times… and at what point would it be illegal, as you're reading things?

The simple answer is "it's not illegal" unless, like with the bag and the shadow, it's being used to directly benefit a player who is controlling when/where/how light is being used. You can't use a prism or something to create a line, and if you're not directing a spectator to aim his flashlight in a position (etc. etc. etc.) you're within the rules to use the light.

By your reasoning it would be impossible to play golf in this situation under the Rules:

http://luxreview.com/article/2015/11/hole-in-one-leds-drive-night-play-at-leading-golf-course

9da33abb7a6c78678820d1c3b436bf2c.jpg

1 minute ago, drmevo said:

Good point.  Say it's flipped then - they don't illuminate the green for A but do for B.  It hasn't gotten appreciably darker in that time. Did B not end up with the advantage?

A could have suspended play if he didn't want to putt.

Plus, if you have to create weird hypotheticals… that's a sign that you're reaching a bit too far. I can't see this situation ever really happening.

What if the lights on a night-time course come on when the sensor thinks it's dark enough, and one player hits a shot in the fading light of dusk while another player, a minute later, gets to play when the lights come on? Them's the breaks.


Isn't the question answered by now?

If you don't think so, go back to the Rules of Golf and please share how you think a bunch of people indiscriminately (i.e. not at the specific direction of a player, etc.) illuminating an area is against the Rules.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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3 minutes ago, iacas said:

The simple answer is "it's not illegal" unless, like with the bag and the shadow, it's being used to directly benefit a player who is controlling when/where/how light is being used. You can't use a prism or something to create a line, and if you're not directing a spectator to aim his flashlight in a position (etc. etc. etc.) you're within the rules to use the light.

That answers my "using flashlight to search for a ball" question.

OT, but now I kind of want to play here when I'm in Vegas in a couple weeks:

http://taylormadegolfexperience.com/golf/9-hole-lighted-course/

- John

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1 minute ago, Hardspoon said:

Gotcha.  That answers my "using flashlight to search for a ball" question.

Well I wasn't specifically answering that question, but it doesn't seem that a flashlight "assists him in making a stroke or in his play, gauges or measures distance or conditions that might affect his play, or assists him in gripping the club."

Right?

Also, note that wearing sunglasses is not illegal, and that helps players achieve the opposite effect: to reduce the amount of light their eyes see.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Isn't the question answered by now?

Fair enough. 

 

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Also, note that wearing sunglasses is not illegal, and that helps players achieve the opposite effect

That's only because they're attached to the player though, right?

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14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Well I wasn't specifically answering that question, but it doesn't seem that a flashlight "assists him in making a stroke or in his play, gauges or measures distance or conditions that might affect his play, or assists him in gripping the club."

OK...I see your point.  I like these discussions since they make me go back through the rules in a "flow-chart" manner - what is the definition of "X", when is "X" specifically banned, etc.

 

- John

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4 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Fair enough.

I was asking. If you're not sold, keep posting or discussing.

4 minutes ago, drmevo said:

That's only because they're attached to the player though, right?

What does "attached" have to do with anything?

The definitions of "equipment" come into play when you're talking about a player using a flashlight, and not when you are talking about lights put up by the course to allow play at night.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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8 minutes ago, iacas said:

I was asking. If you're not sold, keep posting or discussing.

What does "attached" have to do with anything?

The definitions of "equipment" come into play when you're talking about a player using a flashlight, and not when you are talking about lights put up by the course to allow play at night.

I was thinking of how sunglasses shelter the player from the elements, similarly to an umbrella. A player is allowed to hold an umbrella while he makes a stroke, but not have someone else hold it for him.

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5 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I was thinking of how sunglasses shelter the player from the elements, similarly to an umbrella.

Maybe more similar to a hat, jacket, shirt, shoes, wet-weather gloves.

Craig
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(edited)
10 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Maybe more similar to a hat, jacket, shirt, shoes, wet-weather gloves.

Right, but @iacas was comparing sunglasses to a flashlight so in that sense a flashlight could be held by someone else for you, while sunglasses will be touching the player. If there were some bizarre way someone could hold sunglasses for you instead of them being on your head, I believe it wouldn't be allowed (see 14-2/2.5 on the first page). Just as, if you went out in the rain or intense sun and forgot an umbrella, your caddie couldn't hold a jacket over your head.  

Of course, this only applies while the player is making a stroke, and it looks like the discussion at that point related to searching for a golf ball, so perhaps my point was moot. I was just saying the two aren't completely similar as far as I can tell.

As always, I'm not an expert and I enjoy the discussion. Thanks for humoring my questions :beer:

Edited by drmevo
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