Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Lihu

It's really cool that you can putt like a pro.

However, you lose something like 40+ strokes (based on your scores of 91) between your tee shots and putts. It stands to reason that you could gain a lot more strokes improving your irons, than improving your already phenomenal putting. This last month or so, most of my lost shots are from my approach shots and pitch shots. The last 3 weeks, I dedicated only 10% or less of my time to putting and have improved it a lot.

However, If I could work my way to getting >80% GIR or on the fringe in a strategically good landing locations, I should be able to play par golf on most courses rated below 70. My primary focus is on irons and tee shots, then pitching and chipping. Putting is last for me, because if I can land the green near the pin or pitch in from close to the green it would leave me a very short putt. I just need to get my 10 foot and under putting better.

So, with my current experience, I think improving the irons such that you can confidently make 150 yard approaches more than 80% of the time is the goal for us bogey golfers to get us to the next level. At my current skill level, 100 yards and in is very comfortable. I know this because I par many of the holes where my tee shots get me within 100 yards or so.

I strongly believe that the next step is to get my 5 iron reliable to 175 and just be able to expect my 7i/8i to make the 150 yard approaches with >80% to the green or approach fringe, I think this is key to get me to the low single digits. The ability to shape shots to be able to change the height trajectory of the irons is nice, and make high tree shots or low distance shots. And later maybe make purposeful draws and fades?

Not surprising, as it fits into the long game is more important than the short game theory.

I'd agree that play like that will get us into the low single digits.  But it might be kinda hard.  If memory serves, Iacas quoted a stat that said Tiger (who was #1 on tour) greens it from 105 yards 85% of the time.  A quick check of the PGA website shows that Stenson (who was #1 in 2013) gets 72% GIR's.  The lowest guy was about 55%.  Ishikowa was #1 from 125 to 150 yards with 80%.  The last guy was 57%.

I'm not sure getting to the green/fringe from 150 over 80% of the time is really achievable.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I recently changed my strategy to take on bunkers head on.  I don't think I can get out of bogey golfer status unless I take on bunkers with approach shots.   It's my next move up, hence, my focus on iron & bunker practices.

Yeah - if you are pretty confident of getting into 1 or 2 putt range with your bunker shots, you can be much more aggressive.  You've convinced me.  I'm starting bunker practice this week.

[rkim291968]

I'd agree that play like that will get us into the low single digits.  But it might be kinda hard.  If memory serves, Iacas quoted a stat that said Tiger (who was #1 on tour) greens it from 105 yards 85% of the time.  A quick check of the PGA website shows that Stenson (who was #1 in 2013) gets 72% GIR's.  The lowest guy was about 55%.  Ishikowa was #1 from 125 to 150 yards with 80%.  The last guy was 57%.

I'm not sure getting to the green/fringe from 150 over 80% of the time is really achievable.

I was about to respond to Lihu to the similar effect.  I need to take baby steps, and currently, they involve improving iron shots & bunker plays for me.   It will help me get to below 16 HI.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

It's really cool that you can putt like a pro.

However, you lose something like 40+ strokes (based on your scores of 91) between your tee shots and putts. It stands to reason that you could gain a lot more strokes improving your irons, than improving your already phenomenal putting. This last month or so, most of my lost shots are from my approach shots and pitch shots. The last 3 weeks, I dedicated only 10% or less of my time to putting and have improved it a lot.

However, If I could work my way to getting >80% GIR or on the fringe in a strategically good landing locations, I should be able to play par golf on most courses rated below 70. My primary focus is on irons and tee shots, then pitching and chipping. Putting is last for me, because if I can land the green near the pin or pitch in from close to the green it would leave me a very short putt. I just need to get my 10 foot and under putting better.

So, with my current experience, I think improving the irons such that you can confidently make 150 yard approaches more than 80% of the time is the goal for us bogey golfers to get us to the next level. At my current skill level, 100 yards and in is very comfortable. I know this because I par many of the holes where my tee shots get me within 100 yards or so.

I strongly believe that the next step is to get my 5 iron reliable to 175 and just be able to expect my 7i/8i to make the 150 yard approaches with >80% to the green or approach fringe, I think this is key to get me to the low single digits. The ability to shape shots to be able to change the height trajectory of the irons is nice, and make high tree shots or low distance shots. And later maybe make purposeful draws and fades?

Not surprising, as it fits into the long game is more important than the short game theory.

I'd agree that play like that will get us into the low single digits.  But it might be kinda hard.  If memory serves, Iacas quoted a stat that said Tiger (who was #1 on tour) greens it from 105 yards 85% of the time.  A quick check of the PGA website shows that Stenson (who was #1 in 2013) gets 72% GIR's.  The lowest guy was about 55%.  Ishikowa was #1 from 125 to 150 yards with 80%.  The last guy was 57%.

I'm not sure getting to the green/fringe from 150 over 80% of the time is really achievable.

I guess, in a kind of exaggerated sense, I would play par golf with that capability!

Tiger greening from 105 yard 85% of the time is very different from making it 100 yards and in to the green or the approach 80% of the time. Plus his greens are very fast, and unforgiving. I don't expect us to make anywhere close to 80% greens on Tiger's courses.

It should still be our goal to "be deadly within 150 yards", even if we achieve half "deadliness".

[rkim291968]

It should still be our goal to "be deadly within 150 yards", even if we achieve half "deadliness".

My goal is to have fun even if I miss 80% of my approach shots from 150 yards ... and I think I have been meeting my goal .

BTW, I am no longer obsessed to improve my score.  The major slump I just had humbled me quite a bit.   And knowing that I once played to a 12 handicap level gives me a bit of comfort that I can achieve it again.    So, these days, I enjoy practice and working on specific things.  Will see if I can improve my HI to 16 and then back to 12 in coming months.   I think 16 is very doable. Getting to 12 HI is going to take Lihu like efforts .

[Lihu]

BTW, I am no longer obsessed to improve my score.  The major slump I just had humbled me quite a bit.   And knowing that I once played to a 12 handicap level gives me a bit of comfort that I can achieve it again.    So, these days, I enjoy practice and working on specific things.  Will see if I can improve my HI to 16 and then back to 12 in coming months.   I think 16 is very doable.  Getting to 12 HI is going to take Lihu like efforts .

Never been there before, and before a couple months ago, never would have even though it possible. We should play a victory round together when we get there!

[RFKFREAK]

Reading this thread just note made me feel bad about not practicing at all today. Haha

[40learner]

I couldn't make the range so I practiced chipping at home last week and had a great day saturday with the chipping but the driver was off.

I realized today my take back was different.

If I don't go at least 1 a week to the range for my driver practice I am lost come weekend comps.

I don't know how many years it will take to get the big stick right every week.

I need to stop trying to hit 290-330 yrds every time. I have hit 330 twice with wind and warm weather on my side and frequently hit 290 yrds

but more than often I hit 250-260.

Best advice to myself or anybody is try and hit practice balls before the game. I tee off around 7am every week so I never warm up pre game.

[jetsknicks1]

Played 3 times over the holiday, 2 not so good rounds and one very good (for me). Shot back to back 101s, I just couldn't get my driver and wedge working either day. But went out and shot a 91 on Saturday. I hit 10 fairways, including every one on the back and my wedge was just dead on, which led to only 31 putts. The frustrating part was that the only reason I didn't break 90 was because I tripled #9 and had a double on the back. Sigh.......I guess that's why I belong to this thread. :-D

[Lihu]

I couldn't make the range so I practiced chipping at home last week and had a great day saturday with the chipping but the driver was off. I realized today my take back was different. If I don't go at least 1 a week to the range for my driver practice I am lost come weekend comps. I don't know how many years it will take to get the big stick right every week. I need to stop trying to hit 290-330 yrds every time. I have hit 330 twice with wind and warm weather on my side and frequently hit 290 yrds but more than often I hit 250-260. Best advice to myself or anybody is try and hit practice balls before the game. I tee off around 7am every week so I never warm up pre game.

Yes, but even with practice, hitting it that far can only get you in trouble sometimes. 330 is a long way to go wrong. 250-260 gets you a decent distance. That would leave you with something less than a 6i on most par 4.

[rkim291968]

Played 3 times over the holiday, 2 not so good rounds and one very good (for me). Shot back to back 101s, I just couldn't get my driver and wedge working either day. But went out and shot a 91 on Saturday. I hit 10 fairways, including every one on the back and my wedge was just dead on, which led to only 31 putts. The frustrating part was that the only reason I didn't break 90 was because I tripled #9 and had a double on the back. Sigh.......I guess that's why I belong to this thread. :-D

Well, you and I are on parallel track. I could not break 90 on Sunday largely due to a 9 (quad) on par 5 hole. The more maddening thing about my round was, I was extremely streaky. +1 through the 1st 5 holes, +8 on the next 4 holes, +1 for 4 holes to start back 9, and +9 for the final 5 holes. I had a delusion of breaking 80 when I started my round with bogey-par-par-par-par. I still had a hope of breaking 90 when I started back 9 with bogey-par-par-par before notching 4 straight doubles. A huge roller coaster round - it was rather weird.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Well, you and I are on parallel track. I could not break 90 on Sunday largely due to a 9 (quad) on par 5 hole. The more maddening thing about my round was, I was extremely streaky. +1 through the 1st 5 holes, +8 on the next 4 holes, +1 for 4 holes to start back 9, and +9 for the final 5 holes. I had a delusion of breaking 80 when I started my round with bogey-par-par-par-par. I still had a hope of breaking 90 when I started back 9 with bogey-par-par-par before notching 4 straight doubles. A huge roller coaster round - it was rather weird.

I like the new avatar.

[Lihu]

Well, you and I are on parallel track. I could not break 90 on Sunday largely due to a 9 (quad) on par 5 hole. The more maddening thing about my round was, I was extremely streaky. +1 through the 1st 5 holes, +8 on the next 4 holes, +1 for 4 holes to start back 9, and +9 for the final 5 holes. I had a delusion of breaking 80 when I started my round with bogey-par-par-par-par. I still had a hope of breaking 90 when I started back 9 with bogey-par-par-par before notching 4 straight doubles. A huge roller coaster round - it was rather weird.

I thought the streaky nature was part of the game

Was the infamous par 5 the 6th hole? Were the 4 holes you got doubles the hardest on the course? What was the name of the course? A scorecard would be a nice reference.

Your old avatar made you look 800 years old. I was getting used to your image as a sage

[rkim291968]

Was the infamous par 5 the 6th hole? Were the 4 holes you got doubles the hardest on the course? What was the name of the course? A scorecard would be a nice reference.

Your old avatar made you look 800 years old. I was getting used to your image as a sage

Wente Vinyards is the name of the course.  Low handicap ranked holes are in the back of each 9 but they are not necessarily the hardest holes.  BTW, by everyone's account, the course plays 2 strokes harder than its current rating (adjusted lower this year - huh?).  The course is surrounded by danger (some are unavoidable) and it's easy to get big numbers if you miss your approach shot.  Once, I had 8 pars & 8 doubles (7 pars and 7 big numbers on Sunday).  This  should somewhat explain why I am focusing on iron accuracy & bunker shots practices.   If you are not accurate on this course, it will bury you (in the sand).

I decided to change my avatar last night after watching Aeon Flux through Netflix (high def) .

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Was the infamous par 5 the 6th hole? Were the 4 holes you got doubles the hardest on the course? What was the name of the course? A scorecard would be a nice reference.

Your old avatar made you look 800 years old. I was getting used to your image as a sage

Wente Vinyards is the name of the course.  Low handicap ranked holes are in the back of each 9 but they are not necessarily the hardest holes.  BTW, by everyone's account, the course plays 2 strokes harder than its current rating (adjusted lower this year - huh?).  The course is surrounded by danger (some are unavoidable) and it's easy to get big numbers if you miss your approach shot.  Once, I had 8 pars & 8 doubles (7 pars and 7 big numbers on Sunday).  This  should somewhat explain why I am focusing on iron accuracy & bunker shots practices.   If you are not accurate on this course, it will bury you (in the sand).

I decided to change my avatar last night after watching Aeon Flux through Netflix (high def) .

Wow, that's your home course? You golf in style.

Forget about Coyote Creek, I'll be up there sometime early spring. I want to join you on one of your trips. I noticed you need a foursome at $95 for the first person.

Do you think we can do a celebratory round when we get to 12 hcp or better?

[M2R]

Four things I would like to comment on: 1. Score, 2. Handicap Index, 3. Shot Values, and 4. Competence.

Observations and thoughts over a period spanning about 4 years some current some not.

1. Score - Without changing anything in your game, and using statistics, try and find a course with the lowest rating and slope that complements your strengths (verified by actual statistics not just guessing ... if possible). For example, shortish hitter with great lag putting - look for a shorter course with nice large green complexes. Long, a bit wild, and a weak wedge player - look for a longer course but with rating well below par and slope as low as possible. Every person should be looking for different things and sometimes what looks good on paper does not pan out, may take some trial and error.

2. Handicap Index - As above, using statistics try and find a course/tee combination with the highest slope and rating (that plays just inside your competence level) and where the predominate features match your best skills. Also the course should ideally not have a lot of features that would test your weakest skills, for example very heavily bunkered if bunker shots were particularly difficult at your present skill set.

Three seasons ago I played about 70% from the middle tees at Cyprian (73.3/134/6500). For the last two years I have played 90% at Kingston Fairways (68.4/114/5670).

Average score for the last two years I played the Cyprian tees 91, last two years at Kingston tees, 87.  A score of 91 at Cyprian produces a differential of 14.9 while a score of 87 at Kingston produces a differential of 18.4. So while the raw score went down by 4 strokes the average differential went up by 3.5 strokes. I score better at Kingston but do I play better or worse golf?

And a ton of other data like anti-handicap/handicap stability, consistency, total scoring spread, and on and on with how they tie into the picture and why. But I think none of it is interesting as it would require lots and lots of presentation and interpretation of data and discussions of if the interpretation is valid, etc. For instance I think using average scores understates the difference in HCI since HCI is based off 10 best/tournament scores (if any) of last 20.

Bottom line I just wanted a real, concrete example of how the numbers can play out but it is only specific to me. Everyone has to work out their particular situation and what they want to accomplish. Also I'm not advocating just playing one course to manipulate some stat I just wanted to illustrate how score and HCI can be in opposition and hopefully provide some food for thought.

3. Shot Value - This is a tough one. I do not care too much about score or HCI either. I do care about shot values meaning how far did the shot I hit deviate from the shot I planned and visualized. The only way I have found to be fairly objective is to divorce myself from the score. Nothing new, has been stated before, but something to be aware of. For example as a ~15 player I hit most shots consistently poorly but actually played/scored overall OK. But at ~13 I really, really started working on ball contact/control and eventually got to where ~30% of my shots were fairly well struck and 65% were still my typically mis-hit wobblers, the other 5% or so are just really poor. But my HCI actually ballooned 5 strokes or so and only started to reverse itself when maybe 50% or better full shots were reasonably solid and less than 50% were "other". It is just a nightmare for planning a shot when there is a 30% chance it will be semi-solid and a 65% or so chance it will be the old weak shot (or worse). Ball contact/control better overall (but more inconsistent), scoring and HCI through the roof! And yet I play with quite a few that judge the shot value solely by how close it lands to the hole, not how it got there. I totally get that, it just is not something I want to embrace. Again two thing working at odds, on the surface better contact/control can only seem like a good thing but if it comes in small increments that introduce inconsistency it can actually be very destructive to scoring in the short term.

4. Competence - My first season I was blissfully ignorant of what could go wrong and the consequences. I actually got some really good advice as a beginner ... I did not know it was good I just followed it as best as I could, again ignorance. I just flailed away at the ball and was as likely to post 131 as 94. Today I will often draw up a shot and intend to hit it that way, which I do only to find out that while my execution was more or less OK, my planning and visualization of the shot were in some way flawed. But my ball striking had to get to a fairly competent level to experience this. Before that, my decision making was like my first season, blissfully ignorant of what could go wrong. Only when my ball striking became somewhat competent was it revealed that my decision making was actually totally unskilled and unsophisticated. Just another example of how some new circumstance (being a bit more competent at ball striking) can jump up and inflate scores in ways I never would have predicted.

And layer upon layer ... or not ... I think this point was already discussed. Some might seek to minimize and manage this complexity in favour of stability and progression, others might embrace it with the long term view of working through it to the next level with the knowledge that some interim setbacks and pain might be involved. Or a bit of a mixture of both approaches at times.

If it matters I have had indexes from sub 9 to 20 plus. But like I said earlier it is just a number and at present the number says I am a bogey golfer, typical bogey golfer ... eh I do not know, for my part if feels typical yea.

[rkim291968]

Forget about Coyote Creek, I'll be up there sometime early spring. I want to join you on one of your trips. I noticed you need a foursome at $95 for the first person.

Do you think we can do a celebratory round when we get to 12 hcp or better?

We can do celebratory round even if we don't get to 12 hcp .  Let's you and me play mano a mano (no handicap), Southern Cal vs Northern Cal.   Anything you want to bet?   This will give me added motivation to improve before you get up here in early spring.

Back to OT, I've just got back from another range practice.  My ball striking is under control, and I am getting a good handle on getting out of high bunker.  For crying out loud, I am beginning to put some spin on the ball out of bunker.

[Lihu]

Four things I would like to comment on: 1. Score, 2. Handicap Index, 3. Shot Values, and 4. Competence.

Observations and thoughts over a period spanning about 4 years some current some not.

...

3. Shot Value - This is a tough one. I do not care too much about score or HCI either. I do care about shot values meaning how far did the shot I hit deviate from the shot I planned and visualized. The only way I have found to be fairly objective is to divorce myself from the score. Nothing new, has been stated before, but something to be aware of. For example as a ~15 player I hit most shots consistently poorly but actually played/scored overall OK. But at ~13 I really, really started working on ball contact/control and eventually got to where ~30% of my shots were fairly well struck and 65% were still my typically mis-hit wobblers, the other 5% or so are just really poor. But my HCI actually ballooned 5 strokes or so and only started to reverse itself when maybe 50% or better full shots were reasonably solid and less than 50% were "other". It is just a nightmare for planning a shot when there is a 30% chance it will be semi-solid and a 65% or so chance it will be the old weak shot (or worse). Ball contact/control better overall (but more inconsistent), scoring and HCI through the roof! And yet I play with quite a few that judge the shot value solely by how close it lands to the hole, not how it got there. I totally get that, it just is not something I want to embrace. Again two thing working at odds, on the surface better contact/control can only seem like a good thing but if it comes in small increments that introduce inconsistency it can actually be very destructive to scoring in the short term.

...

If it matters I have had indexes from sub 9 to 20 plus. But like I said earlier it is just a number and at present the number says I am a bogey golfer, typical bogey golfer ... eh I do not know, for my part if feels typical yea.

This is very interesting, and thanks for sharing this! Items 1,2 and 4 are not in my immediate priorities, because I need to address item 3 first .

I am still a relative beginner, so I have no history. I just learned how to swing a club properly 2 months ago after almost a year of somewhat misguided instruction and 3 total years total hacking/playing.

Improving my "shot value" is pretty much what I am working on at the range now. I am trying to hit specific targets and repeat as many times as I can. When I get to 3 out of 5 or 6 hits within about a 10 yard circle, I move to another club. This does not happen very often because my typical shot pattern is as follows:

1. 50 degree (U) club- 5 yards
2. PW 6 to 8 yards
3. 9i I can get a dispersion pattern in the 10 yard range, unless I mishit a ball and it goes 15 yards off line and short
4. 8i to 6i is about 20 yards
5. 5i and 4i are about 30 yards
6. 21 and 18 degree hybrids are about 25 yards
7. 3W about 40 yards
8. Driver is about 30 yards wide and maybe 50 yards deep (some of this variation could also be due to random flight limited balls mixed in the buckets), the 30 yard side to side is definitely me.

Based on the results of 2 large buckets (250 to 260 balls) hit tonight and evenly distributed amongst all 13 clubs on full shots. I still duffed 2 balls out of these two buckets. I think my mishit percentage is still in the 60% range as can be seen in the inconsistent dispersion results above, but some of it might be due to the flight limited balls. I completely duffed 2 balls, but I feel that those were rushed shots. Next time I will stop and begin my setup cycle again before swinging.

My ultimate goal is to get the dispersion down to 8 yards up to a 6i; 12 yards for 4i and 5i; 16 yards for the hybrids; 20 yards for the 3W and 25 yards for the driver on the course.

I'll let you know if I can improve from where I am now. Only time and practice will tell.