Q&A for Chris Buie, Author, The Life & Times of Donald Ross

[Chris Buie]

 If Donald Ross didn't visit the site of a golf course when asked to design it, what process did he use to design the golf courses? Did he required any sort of geographical information, like a survey?

Here's an excerpt from a letter he wrote to Ponkapoag:
"I will require a general plan of the property on a scale of one inch equals one hundred feet and contours at five foot intervals to be supplied by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. After the course is laid out I will submit a general plan of the whole layout and also individual plans and specifications for each hole.

Mr. Walter B. Hatch, my Associate...expects to call on you..."

In the case of Ponkapoag, he did visit. However, the letter gives you some sense of how part of that process worked.

......................................................
    How would you describe his philosophy when it came to designing a golf course?

Ah, one could write an entire book on that alone. There's a large chapter on that in the Ross book (I did another book on how they transformed the barren wasteland of Pinehurst into a dreamworld previously: amazon.com/author/chrisbuie)
He tried to incorporate all the natural features of the land. He tried to accommodate a wide variety of playing levels. He wanted thinking/strategy to be part of the experience. There are many, many different parts to how he approached design.
Basically, he tried to make his designs as invigorating and intriguing and enjoyable as he could.

......................................................
 Did he actually visit the Lucerne area to see the course or was this a "postcard" design?  And are there very many Donald Ross 9 hole courses remaining?
I don't think there are an abundance of 9 hole courses. In the appendix of my book there is a complete list (as we know it at this time) of all his courses. One of the items noted is how many holes he designed at each course.

Regarding Lucerne, have a look here and tell me what you think and we'll discuss further:
http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/67EEF659-E134-4E4C-8C8E-397028601766.htm

That is from the Tufts Archives in Pinehurst, by the way. It is an organization absolutely worth supporting.
http://giventufts.org/tufts-archives

You can find information on many of the individual courses here:
http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/toc.htm

 

[Chris Buie]

Did Donald Ross every visit the location for Brookside Country Club in Canton, Ohio when it was being designed and/or built?

To tell you whether or not Ross visited the Brookside property I'd have to do some digging. One of the best places to dig is here:
http://fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html
Make sure you put your inquiry in quotes.
Most states have historical societies - many cities/towns do as well. They are great places to look.
Here's a bit of info from the website:
   "Brookside Country Club ... originally took form as "Lakeside Country Club" in the last decade of the nineteenth century and in 1903, the members of "Lakeside Country Club" bought a casino and began reconstructing a 9-hole golf course located at Myers Lake in Canton, Ohio. In 1917, a move to acquire more land for an additional nine holes began and the search ended in 1920 at the present location. A year later, the famous golf course architect, Donald Ross, designed and built 18 holes of golf."

And here is an interesting bit from a book called:  1921 Canton The City of Diversified Industries:

 

[jsgolfer]

10 hours ago, Chris Buie said:

......................................................
 Did he actually visit the Lucerne area to see the course or was this a "postcard" design?  And are there very many Donald Ross 9 hole courses remaining?
I don't think there are an abundance of 9 hole courses. In the appendix of my book there is a complete list (as we know it at this time) of all his courses. One of the items noted is how many holes he designed at each course.

Regarding Lucerne, have a look here and tell me what you think and we'll discuss further:
http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/67EEF659-E134-4E4C-8C8E-397028601766.htm

 

Thank you so much Chris.  Looking at the design, it appears a little different from what I played when I played a lot of golf in Central Maine.  Or it could be that the hole numbering was changed.  I'll look a little closer tomorrow when I get to work and I can rotate the drawing.  

Have you been up to Penobscot Valley CC and seen the renovation back to the original DR design?  Before I was a member, they did some big changes.  Removed traps, added trees and moved a green.  Played it last year and I love the renovation back to closer to the way it was.  Just love his courses, makes you think you're way around the course and gives you more than one way to play it.  

 

[Chris Buie]

I have not gotten to Penobscot yet but I would certainly love to!

Since you're in Maine, I'll show you an interesting bit that I was going to put in the book but edited out. You can see it in the images below.
It's always interesting to me that, for decades, people can be right beside something remarkable and be completely oblivious of it.

[The course drawing is from the Tufts Archives]

Since we have Buckeye's on here, I've got an outtake for them too.

[jsgolfer]

On 2/28/2017 at 9:21 AM, Chris Buie said:

 If Donald Ross didn't visit the site of a golf course when asked to design it, what process did he use to design the golf courses? Did he required any sort of geographical information, like a survey?

Here's an excerpt from a letter he wrote to Ponkapoag:
"I will require a general plan of the property on a scale of one inch equals one hundred feet and contours at five foot intervals to be supplied by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. After the course is laid out I will submit a general plan of the whole layout and also individual plans and specifications for each hole.

Mr. Walter B. Hatch, my Associate...expects to call on you..."

In the case of Ponkapoag, he did visit. However, the letter gives you some sense of how part of that process worked.

......................................................
    How would you describe his philosophy when it came to designing a golf course?

Ah, one could write an entire book on that alone. There's a large chapter on that in the Ross book (I did another book on how they transformed the barren wasteland of Pinehurst into a dreamworld previously: amazon.com/author/chrisbuie)
He tried to incorporate all the natural features of the land. He tried to accommodate a wide variety of playing levels. He wanted thinking/strategy to be part of the experience. There are many, many different parts to how he approached design.
Basically, he tried to make his designs as invigorating and intriguing and enjoyable as he could.

......................................................
 Did he actually visit the Lucerne area to see the course or was this a "postcard" design?  And are there very many Donald Ross 9 hole courses remaining?
I don't think there are an abundance of 9 hole courses. In the appendix of my book there is a complete list (as we know it at this time) of all his courses. One of the items noted is how many holes he designed at each course.

Regarding Lucerne, have a look here and tell me what you think and we'll discuss further:
http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/67EEF659-E134-4E4C-8C8E-397028601766.htm

That is from the Tufts Archives in Pinehurst, by the way. It is an organization absolutely worth supporting.
http://giventufts.org/tufts-archives

You can find information on many of the individual courses here:
http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/toc.htm

 

After looking at the original design drawing from Tufts and the current layout from the website, they changed the layout some. See below

 

[DaveP043]

On 2/28/2017 at 9:21 AM, Chris Buie said:

That is from the Tufts Archives in Pinehurst, by the way. It is an organization absolutely worth supporting.
http://giventufts.org/tufts-archives

The Tufts Archives is a great place to spend a free hour or two when you're in Pinehurst.  I hadn't realized that so much of this was available online, but now I'll be spending time in the archives while I'm at home in Virginia too.

[Buckeyebowman]

Chris, I found your reproduction of the Donald Ross quote about American golf becoming almost entirely "aerial" absolutely delicious!

I have 36 holes of "Donald Ross designed" golf in my hip pocket at Mill Creek Park in Youngstown, Ohio. One thing I have noticed about this course is that, while well bunkered, there are very few forced carries. You can still run the ball up onto the green if you can hit it straight!

And if a bunker seems to present a forced carry, many times it's what I call an "illusion" bunker. A bunker that is set 20 to 30 yards in front of the green, but uses the lay of the land to make it appear that it is greenside!

The courses were built in 1928-29, so the timeline fits with when Ross was doing a lot of work in this part of the country.

My question is do you have any info about Ross's involvement with Mill Creek, Manakiki, Hawthorne Valley, or any other courses he may have designed in this area? This is in NE Ohio.

EDIT: And thank you very much, iacas, for giving us this opportunity!

Edited March 10, 2017 by Buckeyebowman

[Chris Buie]

Chris, I found your reproduction of the Donald Ross quote about American golf becoming almost entirely "aerial" absolutely delicious!
The example I use in the book is Oakland Hills. The image comparison below says it all.

NE Ohio is underrated for golf courses. There are several first rate courses there.
I did a bit of digging this morning.
Here's a quote regarding Mill Creek
The park commissioners retained the services of Donald Ross, and the eighteen-hole North Course opened for play on July 31, 1928...Frank Hughes served as superintendent of construction under Ross, and later became park superintendent. He assisted in the development of the third nine holes, which opened on July 4, 1932...The final nine holes were completed by Ross in August of 1937.
Tufts Archive info here:
http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/3645B7F1-E2C9-43D8-B2B9-242921656232.htm

...
Hawthorne Valley Tufts info here:
http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/2AA1D15B-0F66-44D2-8BF9-778441521978.htm

...
Here's a Ross quote specifically about Manakiki:

In one respect Manakiki is unique. In almost every golf course, no matter how modern or expensively constructed it may be there are usually two or three of the holes that resemble one another. That is because the architect must do what he can with the topography presented. Ordinarily, he can't help but make some of the holes similar in design. But not at Manakiki. Here, every hole is different! As you go around the course, you never have the idea of sameness from any tee. That is, I believe, one of the most interesting features of this very splendid course.

 

[mcanadiens]

On 3/1/2017 at 0:28 PM, Chris Buie said:

Since we have Buckeye's on here, I've got an outtake for them too.

Ah yes, Miami Valley Golf Club. I once found a golf ball with their logo on it. That was as close as I've come to that place.

Very interesting just the same. Thanks Chris.

[Buckeyebowman]

Chris, thank you so much for your reply. I agree that we in NE Ohio are lucky to live in a golf rich area. So much so, that we have become "overbuilt" for golf, and lost three courses last year alone! Fortunately, none of the "important" ones.

I have played all three of the courses I asked about. Mill Creek was public from the get go, but both Manakiki and Hawthorne Valley were private clubs at one time. Manakiki is now owned by the Cleveland Metroparks District, and Hawthorne is under new ownership and now semi-private. Both are available for play by the general public.

There's a Cleveland based author, John Tidyman, who has written several editions of a book called "Cleveland Golfer's Bible", which features reviews of every course in the Cleveland area and some farther away, like Mill Creek. It's his opinion that Hawthorne Valley is the most scenic Ross course in the area, but I don't know about that. I think Manakiki could give Hawthorne a run for it's money!

[jsgolfer]

On 3/1/2017 at 0:28 PM, Chris Buie said:

I have not gotten to Penobscot yet but I would certainly love to!

Since you're in Maine, I'll show you an interesting bit that I was going to put in the book but edited out. You can see it in the images below.
It's always interesting to me that, for decades, people can be right beside something remarkable and be completely oblivious of it.

[The course drawing is from the Tufts Archives]

Since we have Buckeye's on here, I've got an outtake for them too.

Too bad they didn't build it, Brunswick Golf Club which is down the road is a very nice public courses.  But that would have been a nice tract of land.

[Buckeyebowman]

Had to come back here because something was bugging me, and I finally figured out what it was. I don't know if Mr. Buie is still monitoring this thread, but the info about Hawthorne Valley CC seems to be about a course in Westland, MI. I was asking about a course in Solon, Ohio. It has the exact same name. Maybe I'll see if I can peruse the Tufts archives on my own and arrive at an answer.

[Chris Buie]

Being so prolific leads to a number of interesting situations. In this case, he created so many courses that some had the same name! He worked on two separate courses named Essex, as well!
Thank you for catching that about the club in Solon, OH. I don't have much information on it but would certainly like to know more. It appears to have been a very fine course that was almost shut down but has be rescued. Is that correct? Also, it was over 6,500 yards in 1926. That means it was pretty muscular for the time and would hold up today quite well.
I'll look into it and chime back in if I find more information on it.
Thanks much again for pointing this out. Good work!

Edited May 7, 2017 by Chris Buie
got date wrong

[Buckeyebowman]

You are exactly right, Chris. Here's a quote from the Cleveland Golfer's Bible I referenced earlier.

"Almost sold  to Bertram Wolstein, the developer whose lack of regard for wetlands and environmental law is legend, this wonderful Donald Ross course was saved by developer Fred Rzepka, who bought it, and immediately set about improving it. While it was member- owned, outings were rare - a shame, because in a town with a fistful of Ross courses, this is likely the most beautiful and challenging,"

I took a quick look at the archives last night. I was never able to access any sketches or records, but after a keyword search did come up with a list of record titles. I couldn't find anything that seemed to refer to the Solon, Ohio course.

[Buckeyebowman]

Found out some more recent info about Hawthorne Valley. It seems that the course was closed again in January 2016 and re-opened almost immediately in April 2016. Fred Rzepka and his Brother, who rescued Hawthorne originally, signed a management deal with Davey Golf, a division of the Davey Tree Expert Co. which is headquartered in Kent, OH. Davey Golf is headquartered in Michigan. It will still function as a public course. I found this info in the May edition of Crain's Cleveland Business.

I greatly admire the Rzepkas, but let's face it, they are commercial developers whose primary business is not owning and running a golf course. That's why I'm hopeful this Davey Golf deal works out.

Also, I noticed a delightful connection between Ross's letter to Ponkapoag, "Mr. Walter B. Hatch, my Associate...expects to call on you.", and the Associate's letter to Ross about Mill Creek Park's "Blue Course". I'm guessing that refers to the North Course. "I hope you will be able to send these (plans) soon as I can not send them a bill until they have the plans and I am BROKE. Let me know when they are sent." WBH

Ah, life on the road!