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I started this here for a place to discuss what was off topic in the other thread.  Here is what I am calling the old fashioned way to swing...  Look at the lead knee...

 

 

Edited by Jack Watson
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Here is Robert Rock,  I see no flaws here.  I am calling this the modern swing.  This is a great swing.

 

Here's Adam Scott...many like his swing a lot..

 

Here's Adam Scott...many like his swing a lot..

Here's Tom Watsons swing with the left knee breaking in and some comments...

 

Edited by Jack Watson
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Two interesting looks at the golf swing. I would ask everyone to notice the impact position of Mickey Wright's swing. While her legs, particularly her left leg, is very active in the swing, It stabilizes quite rapidly at impact. It doesn't just flop around.

Robert Rock's swing is much more modern and depends more on upper body torsion. His legs seem to do barely more than support the rotation of his upper body.

FWIW, as a kid I was taught the "Mickey Wright" style of swing. Make the "K" with your legs. Get the knee, and femur, pointing behind the ball at the top of the backswing.

There's all kinds of ways to hit a golf ball.

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(edited)

Here's Adam Scott...many like his swing a lot..

Here's Tom Watsons swing with the left knee breaking in and some comments...

In this video there's a list of players who released the left knee...They are all good players.  I just wonder who decided keeping the left knee from releasing was desirable?

 

Edited by Jack Watson
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In Mickey Wrights book she described the action of the trail leg as the lead knee breaks in as a buttress.  She wanted it to "basically remain in its address position" while the lead knee released thus transferring the weight into the trail leg.

What I find in playing around with these concepts is that if I release the left knee and do not retain pressure in the right instep as one would when throwing a ball I get a lateral slide towards the target of my torso via gravity. Obviously hips sliding away from target during backswing is another fault I will not consider since I don't do that.

If the lead knee releases and weight and pressure are retained in the right instep and along the inside of the right leg then to me the sequence of the ds happens very much like throwing a ball.  It feels nice.  If the right leg accepts the weight there's no instant sliding towards the target during backswing.

I like the feel of releasing the lead knee because it allows a nice hip turn and I can get to the top without any tension or stretch anywhere.  Basically the only thing 'loaded'. Is the right leg at the top.  My goal is essentially to minimize spine twist and bend during the swing.  I try to keep my hips and shoulders at the same angle and minimize X factor.  I probably turn the torso flatter than what many modern instructors would recommend.

If I imitate the more modern style there's a lot more stretch and tension and it kills my feel of the swing and I feel I am going to hurt myself.  I am older now.  One thing I don't wanna do is injure myself.

I think the old fashioned way to swing as I am calling it can be a good option to play around with espescially for the less flexible golfer.

Also,  I think one can do this while keeping compliance with 5sk.

The one injury concern I think I would have is the right knee for someone obese.  That's a lot of pressure there if one is heavy.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jack Watson
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7 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

In Mickey Wrights book she described the action of the trail leg as the lead knee breaks in as a buttress.  She wanted it to "basically remain in its address position" while the lead knee released thus transferring the weight into the trail leg.

What I find in playing around with these concepts is that if I release the left knee and do not retain pressure in the right instep as one would when throwing a ball I get a lateral slide towards the target of my torso via gravity. Obviously hips sliding away from target during backswing is another fault I will not consider since I don't do that.

If the lead knee releases and weight and pressure are retained in the right instep and along the inside of the right leg then to me the sequence of the ds happens very much like throwing a ball.  It feels nice.  If the right leg accepts the weight there's no instant sliding towards the target during backswing.

I like the feel of releasing the lead knee because it allows a nice hip turn and I can get to the top without any tension or stretch anywhere.  Basically the only thing 'loaded'. Is the right leg at the top.  My goal is essentially to minimize spine twist and bend during the swing.  I try to keep my hips and shoulders at the same angle and minimize X factor.  I probably turn the torso flatter than what many modern instructors would recommend.

If I imitate the more modern style there's a lot more stretch and tension and it kills my feel of the swing and I feel I am going to hurt myself.  I am older now.  One thing I don't wanna do is injure myself.

I think the old fashioned way to swing as I am calling it can be a good option to play around with espescially for the less flexible golfer.

Also,  I think one can do this while keeping compliance with 5sk.

The one injury concern I think I would have is the right knee for someone obese.  That's a lot of pressure there if one is heavy.

 

 

 

 

 

To me that sounds a lot like the old "hold a beach ball between your knees and drop it" when you initiate the downswing. Kind of the old "Sam Snead squat" move.

I think it's worth noting that Snead played excellent golf years beyond most players. I believe he's the oldest winner of a PGA Tour event.

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The old style is much easier on the body.  I'm in my late 30's and grew up with the x factor style swing and I agree with you Jack that it kills my feel for timing and increases my chance of injury.  Letting my left knee buckle in the backswing helps with my timing coming down.  The "modern" style swing creates too much tension and I think it's harder to control distance especially with my irons. 

Another great player with longevity who swung "old style" was Vijay Singh.  He played his best golf in his late 40's.

 

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@Jack Watson, what's the point here? Don't read any ill intent there… I'm just asking.

The other thread explored an actual myth - that the trail knee should "maintain its address flex" throughout the backswing, despite the fact that almost no top-level player does this.

I'm unaware of any such myth or even mild confusion regarding the front knee - everyone seems to understand that it flexes during the backswing. So what's the point?

If it's to say that you can let the left heel come off the ground… then that's fine, and a point with which I don't disagree, depending on the flexibility, etc. of the golfer.

So what's the point?

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

In Mickey Wrights book she described the action of the trail leg as the lead knee breaks in as a buttress.  She wanted it to "basically remain in its address position" while the lead knee released thus transferring the weight into the trail leg.

Very little weight is transferred in the swings of good players, whether their lead knee translates back or not. The "modern" golf swing as you've called it, too, or a swing with less knee break shifts pressure to the right foot, too - obviously less if the person lifts their left foot off the ground, but weight is not pressure.

In both swings (knee translates/not knee translates) pressure shifts trail-ward. In both swings, weight minimally shifts trail-ward.

More pressure shifts in a "knee translates" swing particularly if the left heel actually comes off the ground, but that's a magic trick caused by the temporary loss of contact with the ground that you can achieve for a moment in a dynamic motion.

Spoiler

This video is old and dealt with the misconception that if you lifted your heel your weight was "entirely" under your right foot, but some of the general ideas apply:

 

Pressure still shifts rightward - quite a bit - in a "less knee translation" backswing, too. And Mickey can say what she wants… her trail knee extended, too.

Also, before we get too far into this, there's probably a reason the "modern" swing is different. We have different golf equipment. We understand the importance of power and speed.

Bobby Jones or Francis Ouimet swung with hickory shafted clubs, and they required an entirely different sense of timing and rhythm to get them to work properly. You couldn't have swung like Nick Price with hickory, based on all I've read. So if there is a clear difference, perhaps there's a bit of that going on here, too.

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

What I find in playing around with these concepts is that if I release the left knee and do not retain pressure in the right instep as one would when throwing a ball I get a lateral slide towards the target of my torso via gravity. Obviously hips sliding away from target during backswing is another fault I will not consider since I don't do that.

The hips swaying away from the target in the backswing is a huge problem we see in many, many golfers.

If lifting your heel helps you with your timing, or re-planting it helps you feel better about your golf swing (a lot of guys who re-plant do so more open, and I'd suggest to them that they simply try flaring their front foot out to start with), cool.

But let's not pretend that allowing gravity to help you drop your heel an inch is going to have any major impact on your golf swing. You can shift your left knee out, roll your ankle, slide your hips forward, etc. without first bringing your heel off the ground. If you're gonna push "we should let the front heel come off the ground" then at least have valid reasons for it.

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

If the lead knee releases and weight and pressure are retained in the right instep and along the inside of the right leg then to me the sequence of the ds happens very much like throwing a ball.  It feels nice.  If the right leg accepts the weight there's no instant sliding towards the target during backswing.

Weight and pressure - with the understanding that for a moment I can make pressure do whatever I want - are virtually identical in the two types of swings your describing.

Yes, you can actively pull your left heel off the ground, and the forces will tend to favor the right side more (as a % of total forces), which we typically mis-label "pressure" in the golf swing, but the weight will remain about the same, and the actual application of the forces will be about the same, too - you're just tricking the machine by "pulling" the left heel off the ground.

I'm glad it "feels nice" to you, but IMO, that's neither here nor there because someone else could say the opposite "feels nice," and that advances the discussion zero.

I've spent a LOT of time studying weight and pressure and forces in the golf swing. These two swings are, except for the parlor trick of actively pulling the left heel off the ground, virtually the same.

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I like the feel of releasing the lead knee because it allows a nice hip turn and I can get to the top without any tension or stretch anywhere.

Let's avoid discussing feels, as they're different for everyone.

I too like people to be able to turn enough. Thing is, the more (unnecessary) motions you add, the more things have to "reassemble" in the downswing. If a student can get enough turn without "releasing the lead knee," then I see very little upside and more downside in having them do it.

If an older or less flexible golfer wants to release their lead knee, I allow and even instruct them to do so if they can get enough more turn to offset the negatives.

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Basically the only thing 'loaded'. Is the right leg at the top.

That's a "loaded" word. Your arms are "loaded" too, are they not? Your hips have turned. Your torso has turned. Your wrists have hinged and done other things.

You've in fact added MORE motion to the golf swing, and thus perhaps have "more" things loaded that need to "unload" properly and in the correct sequence to hit the ball solidly.

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

My goal is essentially to minimize spine twist and bend during the swing.  I try to keep my hips and shoulders at the same angle and minimize X factor.  I probably turn the torso flatter than what many modern instructors would recommend.

Your spine is already bent over at address. Your hips are inclined, too. If you swing too flat, you're actually changing your spine angle more than others who turn their shoulders "around the hula hoop."

Nobody really follows the original "X-Factor" idea anyway. If you're arguing against that… the ship has sailed. Restricting hip turn is NOT at all something I support - the "myth of retaining trail knee flex" talks about that, after all.

So again… what's the point of this topic?

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

If I imitate the more modern style there's a lot more stretch and tension and it kills my feel of the swing and I feel I am going to hurt myself.  I am older now.  One thing I don't wanna do is injure myself.

I think the old fashioned way to swing as I am calling it can be a good option to play around with espescially for the less flexible golfer.

Okay. So lift your front heel a little. Nobody here would tell you not to if you need to do it in order to turn successfully.

19 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Also,  I think one can do this while keeping compliance with 5sk.

That's why 5SK is not a "one swing pattern" or method.

23 minutes ago, vjgidda said:

The old style is much easier on the body.

I think that's likely to be true, but it may also give up something, too. Perhaps, because of the increased number of motions required, it took more skill or timing to pull off successfully.

20 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Davis Love showing his old school power...

Posting a video without any real commentary doesn't advance the discussion.

In that video, Davis Love III is…

  • young. He doesn't lack for flexibility.
  • swinging a steel-shafted driver with a wooden head.
  • hitting a balata golf ball with a liquid center.

He was also taught by his dad, and even III is getting up there in years himself. Times change.


Again, don't read any ill will into asking what the point of this topic is. It feels like it should be renamed "Releasing the left heel in the backswing: is it for you?" or something.

The other topic was about a myth. This isn't.

So what's the point?

  • If it's "letting the left heel come off the ground can help those who lack flexibility," I agree.
  • If it's "this is the way you should swing," I disagree.
  • If it's "people misunderstand how the left knee should work in the golf swing," I again disagree.

Whatever the point, let's try to keep things away from personal feels and biases, and discuss the actual mechanics, physics, science, etc. of it.

Everyone's feels are different. If I lift my left heel like Nicklaus did, I feel out of control. I swing slower and hit the ball less solidly. It requires more timing on my part. So a valid counter to "I feel like it is good" is "I feel like it is bad." That type of discussion is pointless.

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The lead knee gains flexes and rotates inward (internal rotation). How much is dependent on style, flexibility and feel. I prefer to see a lead knee rotate inward enough to where it's pointed at the ball or inside the ball (depending on club) at the top of the backswing.

I think one thing that is important with more of an "old-school" pivot or having more freedom with the lead knee is that it does need to be sequenced with the torso movement. I can lift rotate my knee inward and make a horrible swing with terrible alignments. How players feel things will vary but be careful with just "collapsing" the lead knee inward to fix you swing.

When it comes to releasing the left heel I think it should be something that it more passive than active. The heel is being "unweighted" and the foot is not actively going to plantar flexion.

On 5/20/2017 at 7:41 PM, Jack Watson said:

I just wonder who decided keeping the left knee from releasing was desirable?

Probably 5 Lessons where Hogan describes his "restrictive" pivot. Or at least that was the takeaway for many golf instructors.

I do find it interesting that you have Nicklaus who won 18 majors, hit it high, far and didn't curve it much (IMO was a better ball striker than Hogan), also wrote some good instruction books yet none of it transferred to mainstream golf instruction. People are still trying to chase Hogan's swing.

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10 hours ago, iacas said:

@Jack Watson, what's the point here? Don't read any ill intent there… I'm just asking.

The other thread explored an actual myth - that the trail knee should "maintain its address flex" throughout the backswing, despite the fact that almost no top-level player does this.

I'm unaware of any such myth or even mild confusion regarding the front knee - everyone seems to understand that it flexes during the backswing. So what's the point?

If it's to say that you can let the left heel come off the ground… then that's fine, and a point with which I don't disagree, depending on the flexibility, etc. of the golfer.

So what's the point?

My point for me is to discuss the old fashioned left knee move and mechanics related to it.  With the title I think all disciplines or ideas related to the left knee should feel free to comment.

Yes,. The left knee flexes but as Tom Watson said in the video I put up it does not flex towards the left toes in the old fashioned way.  Crucial point for the old schoolers and a critical distinction here between simply flexing vs breaking inward in the old fashioned style.  I did title it left knee and I knew I shouldn't have put up the Wayne D video because he misses the point of the whole thing imo by focusing on the heel of the lead foot.  I am not a fan of his.

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Very little weight is transferred in the swings of good players, whether their lead knee translates back or not. The "modern" golf swing as you've called it, too, or a swing with less knee break shifts pressure to the right foot, too - obviously less if the person lifts their left foot off the ground, but weight is not pressure.

In both swings (knee translates/not knee translates) pressure shifts trail-ward. In both swings, weight minimally shifts trail-ward.

More pressure shifts in a "knee translates" swing particularly if the left heel actually comes off the ground, but that's a magic trick caused by the temporary loss of contact with the ground that you can achieve for a moment in a dynamic motion.

It is a sticking point for me when you say little weight shifts.  Mickey Wright placed high emphasis on shift weight from foot to foot as did George Knudsen.  IMO the old fashioned style has 95 percent plus on the loaded right leg at some point away from the ball.  Even Hogan can be seen on many swings with his head moving slightly off the ball to the trail leg.  IMO The actual mass does or can make a very small shift into the trail foot going back.  IMO it's a key point for old schoolers.  It does not take a large movement in terms of measurement of distance to move the golfers cog.

I absolutely agree the modern swing is absolutely doing something very similar in terms of pressure and it has been proved many times.

10 hours ago, iacas said:
  Reveal hidden contents

This video is old and dealt with the misconception that if you lifted your heel your weight was "entirely" under your right foot, but some of the general ideas apply:

 

Pressure still shifts rightward - quite a bit - in a "less knee translation" backswing, too. And Mickey can say what she wants… her trail knee extended, too.

Also, before we get too far into this, there's probably a reason the "modern" swing is different. We have different golf equipment. We understand the importance of power and speed.

Bobby Jones or Francis Ouimet swung with hickory shafted clubs, and they required an entirely different sense of timing and rhythm to get them to work properly. You couldn't have swung like Nick Price with hickory, based on all I've read. So if there is a clear difference, perhaps there's a bit of that going on here, too.

Again absolutely no disagreement here on the pressure in a mod swing.  

As far as equipment the steel shaft changed the game absolutely imo.  I sometimes play persimmon but hickory?  Lol nah.  Bob Jones did list his driver max at 300 though.  No idea if it's ever been verified,. Personally I am skeptical.  I think too golfers have always valued speed and power regardless of era.  Power is a game changer.

10 hours ago, iacas said:

The hips swaying away from the target in the backswing is a huge problem we see in many, many golfers.

If lifting your heel helps you with your timing, or re-planting it helps you feel better about your golf swing (a lot of guys who re-plant do so more open, and I'd suggest to them that they simply try flaring their front foot out to start with), cool.

But let's not pretend that allowing gravity to help you drop your heel an inch is going to have any major impact on your golf swing. You can shift your left knee out, roll your ankle, slide your hips forward, etc. without first bringing your heel off the ground. If you're gonna push "we should let the front heel come off the ground" then at least have valid reasons for it

I agree on flaring the lead foot in an old school move and also  agree with flaring both depending on ones choice of style.

Hip sway is a problem.

I also agree 100 percent to the rest,. again my old school 'critical move' is a knee move and raising the heel a bit...Everything is as you say. 

10 hours ago, iacas said:

eight and pressure - with the understanding that for a moment I can make pressure do whatever I want - are virtually identical in the two types of swings your describing.

Yes, you can actively pull your left heel off the ground, and the forces will tend to favor the right side more (as a % of total forces), which we typically mis-label "pressure" in the golf swing, but the weight will remain about the same, and the actual application of the forces will be about the same, too - you're just tricking the machine by "pulling" the left heel off the ground.

I'm glad it "feels nice" to you, but IMO, that's neither here nor there because someone else could say the opposite "feels nice," and that advances the discussion zero.

I've spent a LOT of time studying weight and pressure and forces in the golf swing. These two swings are, except for the parlor trick of actively pulling the left heel off the ground, virtually the same.

Here I can find a sticking point from old school related to modern.  Again I must reiterate for me the left heel is irrelevant in a sense for old fashioned mechanics.  My focus is absolutely the knee motion.

I agree again absolutely simply lifting the lead foot off the ground is a 'flash' pressure transfer and ultimately meaningless as you alluded to.  You mention old and new swings are 'virtually identical' in terms of the pressure shifting and I can't argue semantics too much.  They are absolutely very similar.  The thing is if you are balanced on your right leg at the top and your left knee is broken in deep,  can you make an instant leverage on the clubhead without totally disrupting your balance?  Now,  If you have not shifted your left knee off the ball within a microsecond you can destroy your own sequence of motion by being too aggressive from the top and leveraging and destroying your ability to swing through well.

Finally since these are sticking points,  if the left knee motion is a "parlor trick"  then why did these guys waste the added motion doing it?  (obviously talking old fashioned swing only)

 

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Let's avoid discussing feels, as they're different for everyone.

I too like people to be able to turn enough. Thing is, the more (unnecessary) motions you add, the more things have to "reassemble" in the downswing. If a student can get enough turn without "releasing the lead knee," then I see very little upside and more downside in having them do it.

If an older or less flexible golfer wants to release their lead knee, I allow and even instruct them to do so if they can get enough more turn to offset the negatives.

I will do my best not to use feel as a reason for something.

Agree here.

10 hours ago, iacas said:

That's a "loaded" word. Your arms are "loaded" too, are they not? Your hips have turned. Your torso has turned. Your wrists have hinged and done other things.

You've in fact added MORE motion to the golf swing, and thus perhaps have "more" things loaded that need to "unload" properly and in the correct sequence to hit the ball solidly.

Maybe some semantics trouble here?  The way I meant it implies a tension or resistance if that makes sense.  I would call a golf shaft that's bent during a point in the swing as 'loaded.'

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Posting a video without any real commentary doesn't advance the discussion.

In that video, Davis Love III is…

  • young. He doesn't lack for flexibility.
  • swinging a steel-shafted driver with a wooden head.
  • hitting a balata golf ball with a liquid center.

He was also taught by his dad, and even III is getting up there in years himself. Times change.

If you watch the video there are a couple really good overhead shots where you can observe just how centered his hip action was.  You can see the hips well.  Very centered imo.  It's not a common view of the swing,  plus it was set to good music,  plus III had an active old fashioned left knee.

My intent in starting the thread was not to imply there's a better way or everyone should do this...It was just to stimulate discussion.  Honestly I almost started it in golf talk but somehow it didn't seem to fit.

 

 

7 hours ago, mvmac said:
On 5/20/2017 at 7:41 PM, Jack Watson said:

I just wonder who decided keeping the left knee from releasing was desirable?

Probably 5 Lessons where Hogan describes his "restrictive" pivot. Or at least that was the takeaway for many golf instructors.

I do find it interesting that you have Nicklaus who won 18 majors, hit it high, far and didn't curve it much (IMO was a better ball striker than Hogan), also wrote some good instruction books yet none of it transferred to mainstream golf instruction. People are still trying to chase Hogan's swing.

Could well have been Hogan.  I was in the Hogan trap years ago.  His move was his.  Nicklaus said he was the best ballstriker but at what cost?  The guy hit more balls than almost anyone.

I like Nicklaus for ballstriking a lot.

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8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Yes,. The left knee flexes but as Tom Watson said in the video I put up it does not flex towards the left toes in the old fashioned way.  Crucial point for the old schoolers and a critical distinction here between simply flexing vs breaking inward in the old fashioned style.  I did title it left knee and I knew I shouldn't have put up the Wayne D video because he misses the point of the whole thing imo by focusing on the heel of the lead foot.  I am not a fan of his.

I don't see this as a point of contention, though. As I said, the "trail knee" thing was and still is a "myth" of sorts.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

It is a sticking point for me when you say little weight shifts. Mickey Wright placed high emphasis on shift weight from foot to foot as did George Knudsen.

This is the kind of stuff I don't want to discuss. It's a feel. It's not science. It's not reality. I don't care what Mickey Wright said she did or felt or emphasized. Her weight didn't shift to the right much more than someone else whose left knee stays more forward.

Mickey.jpg

Mickey's swing is almost the same, from a weight perspective, as someone whose left knee doesn't move in as much. The only real difference here is that her left knee is a bit more central, but in terms of pure "right or left of the line," it's virtually identical.

And she could pick her foot completely off the ground and get to 100% force/pressure right… but you could do that with a "modern" left knee action too.

So yeah, let's not discuss feels or what people think they did or do, not when we have actual ways of measuring and seeing what they actually did or do.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

It is a sticking point for me when you say little weight shifts.  Mickey Wright placed high emphasis on shift weight from foot to foot as did George Knudsen.

Sorry, I didn't address the first part.

It shouldn't be a "sticking point." I've got measurements from hundreds of golfers, and I've seen data from thousands. There's a "small weight shift, much of it due to the arms. It's almost impossible for a player with a steady head (Key #1, and a commonality of the game's best players) to have a large weight shift. How could they do it? Their feet are pretty much set in place, their head is steady… so the only things they can "shift" right during the backswing are their arms (they all do this), and their hips (few do this, it'd be a reverse pivot, a sway, etc. Colin Montgomerie, Sergio Garcia had small sways).

So yeah, small weight shifts. 55/45 right, or thereabouts.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

IMO the old fashioned style has 95 percent plus on the loaded right leg at some point away from the ball.

No.

Watch the video I posted up above, too, please.

And please be careful about the words you use when saying force, weight, and pressure. The first and third are often used interchangeably (unfortunately), but "weight" is a static measurement, and is used as such here.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Even Hogan can be seen on many swings with his head moving slightly off the ball to the trail leg.

Hogan.jpg

Not anywhere near enough to get 95% of his weight right. That's not going to lead to a functional golf swing.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

IMO The actual mass does or can make a very small shift into the trail foot going back. … It does not take a large movement in terms of measurement of distance to move the golfers cog.

@Jack Watson, you've said two basically contradictory things here.

There is a small weight shift, as I said (and which, above, you said was a "sticking point" for you). It in fact does require a pretty significant movement to shift the COG to where 95% of the weight is over the right foot. A non-functional amount of shift.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

As far as equipment the steel shaft changed the game absolutely imo.  I sometimes play persimmon but hickory?  Lol nah.  Bob Jones did list his driver max at 300 though.  No idea if it's ever been verified,. Personally I am skeptical.  I think too golfers have always valued speed and power regardless of era.  Power is a game changer.

The point was… there's a reason swings evolve. They're found to be more efficient, or otherwise better. Not always, but generally speaking, things tend to get better, and shift with the changing equipment, conditions, etc.

Persimmon and balata required different actions than graphite, titanium, and urethane combined with our understanding of launch characteristics, how golfers score, etc.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I agree again absolutely simply lifting the lead foot off the ground is a 'flash' pressure transfer and ultimately meaningless as you alluded to.  You mention old and new swings are 'virtually identical' in terms of the pressure shifting and I can't argue semantics too much.  They are absolutely very similar.  The thing is if you are balanced on your right leg at the top and your left knee is broken in deep,  can you make an instant leverage on the clubhead without totally disrupting your balance?  Now,  If you have not shifted your left knee off the ball within a microsecond you can destroy your own sequence of motion by being too aggressive from the top and leveraging and destroying your ability to swing through well.

Huh?

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Finally since these are sticking points,  if the left knee motion is a "parlor trick"  then why did these guys waste the added motion doing it?  (obviously talking old fashioned swing only)

Because they were taught that way. Because maybe they learned when shafts and things were whippier, and swings were more like that style.

Also, I didn't say the left knee motion was a "parlor trick." I teach it to students who need a bit more range of motion to turn. The "parlor trick" reference was regarding how you could dramatically shift forces right by lifting your heel off the ground, temporarily, within the context of a dynamic motion.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Maybe some semantics trouble here?  The way I meant it implies a tension or resistance if that makes sense.  I would call a golf shaft that's bent during a point in the swing as 'loaded.'

I don't think so. The shaft is in forward flexion at impact - that seems more "unloaded" to me than "loaded."

The point remains… use words that have clear meanings. You said the only thing "loaded" at the top is the right leg. That makes no real sense.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

If you watch the video there are a couple really good overhead shots where you can observe just how centered his hip action was.  You can see the hips well.  Very centered imo.  It's not a common view of the swing,  plus it was set to good music,  plus III had an active old fashioned left knee.

Right, so if her head is relatively steady, and her hips are centered… she ain't shifting 95% of her weight to her right side. Just not happening.

8 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

My intent in starting the thread was not to imply there's a better way or everyone should do this...It was just to stimulate discussion.  Honestly I almost started it in golf talk but somehow it didn't seem to fit.

Here's all I can see this topic saying at this point: If you lack some flexibility and want to be able to turn your hips and thus your torso a bit more, try letting your left knee release a little more and, if necessary, allow your left heel to come off the ground.

That's about it.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Just a couple of comments.

Jack Watson's quoting of Mickey Wright about her trail leg acting as a "buttress" brought to mind something I caught a buddy of mine doing about a month ago. He's a righty and very flexible. At the top of his backswing not only was his left knee flexing in toward the ball, but he was rolling onto the outside of his right foot with his right knee moving away from the target!

His legs looked like a couple of noodles, he was swaying all over the place, and was hitting some really rotten shots! I finally asked him if I could say something. I showed him what he was doing, had him make a few practice swings and told him I'd keep an eye on him. Almost immediately he started hitting the ball better.

As for me my right leg straightens a bit in the backswing as my hips turn, and I do allow my left heel to come off the ground though I don't think about it. I'm 64 an not as flexible as I used to be.

And about Nicklaus vs Hogan as ball strikers, I believe it was at the 1960 US Open at Cherry Hills near Denver when Hogan was paired with the young Nicklaus. After the round, Hogan reportedly told the press, "I played with a young kid today who, if he knew anything at all about the game of golf, would have just made this place look silly!"

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23 hours ago, iacas said:

More pressure shifts in a "knee translates" swing particularly if the left heel actually comes off the ground, but that's a magic trick caused by the temporary loss of contact with the ground that you can achieve for a moment in a dynamic motion.

  Hide contents

This video is old and dealt with the misconception that if you lifted your heel your weight was "entirely" under your right foot, but some of the general ideas apply:

 

Pressure still shifts rightward - quite a bit - in a "less knee translation" backswing, too. And Mickey can say what she wants… her trail knee extended, too.

In this video you demonstrated stuff on the left that no good golfer has ever done.  On the right you show a a way to be in a good position albeit devoid of weight shift,  but not once on either side did you show something that matches what Mickey Wright did even in concept.

11 hours ago, iacas said:

 

12 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Yes,. The left knee flexes but as Tom Watson said in the video I put up it does not flex towards the left toes in the old fashioned way.  Crucial point for the old schoolers and a critical distinction here between simply flexing vs breaking inward in the old fashioned style.  I did title it left knee and I knew I shouldn't have put up the Wayne D video because he misses the point of the whole thing imo by focusing on the heel of the lead foot.  I am not a fan of his.

Read more  

I don't see this as a point of contention, though. As I said, the "trail knee" thing was and still is a "myth" of sorts.

 

If you notice,  every swing I put up that I am using for examples demonstrate the left knee moving as Watson said and Wright did.  It's the whole point in the older motion,  if we say it's not then we are not discussing the old school pivot.

I grant you that yes,  most times even for Mickey,  if you nitpick with video lines you will find a degree of movement in the right knee so technically your point is correct.

Mickeys head moves off the ball,  she has some tilt away from target her arms and club go to her right while her left knee moves to the right,  her right leg has the weight and is her balance point on the backswing.  From face on look at the angle her right leg is at.  It's not vertical and that makes a very big difference.

11 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think so. The shaft is in forward flexion at impact - that seems more "unloaded" to me than "loaded."

The point remains… use words that have clear meanings. You said the only thing "loaded" at the top is the right leg. That makes no real sense.

Ok,  thought the word is a common term and easy to understand.  I will try again and say it's the only place there's tension.

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Persimmon and balata required different actions than graphite, titanium, and urethane combined with our understanding of launch characteristics, how golfers score, etc.

I bet the optimal impact on the wound balata would be different from the pro v but it's just a guess.  

Its not my intent for the discussion to become a war of words.  I have not attacked the mod swing and have said repeatedly it is effective and efficient.

I am simply saying dynamically there are differences between it and the old school method.  Maybe the mod swing is truly an improvement on what used to be done.

Tbh if anyone thinks they can simply start making a move with the left knee and somehow improve their golf I will say my opinion is nothing could be further from the truth.  There is a method to it all and without a pro helping it absolutely will make a person have less control of the ball/swing.

I wish I could share more detail on the old fashioned way and how it was taught by my pro,  how he used video a bit and what not,  but I never finished with him and I had to pay to learn what I did.  Also he spent his life acquiring what he did and if I sat here and put out what I was taught...Its just not my place and would not be right for me to do so.  It's nothing earth shattering anyway.  

It is however more than just a way to get more turn for the inflexible.  I do not believe all these fantastic golfers just did it out of ignorance

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It is however more than just a way to get more turn for the inflexible.  I do not believe all these fantastic golfers just did it out of ignorance

I disagree with this. Lots of fantastic golfers today don't use this move.

People will adopt swing moves based on the style in a given era, regardless of whether they actually improve the swing or not. Think about reverse C finishes or square feet. Some top players play well despite certain trends, not because of them.

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2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

In this video you demonstrated stuff on the left that no good golfer has ever done.  On the right you show a a way to be in a good position albeit devoid of weight shift,  but not once on either side did you show something that matches what Mickey Wright did even in concept.

The video was not made for this discussion but a good chunk of it applies - just because you lift your heel off the ground doesn't mean you transfer 95% of your weight right.

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

If you notice,  every swing I put up that I am using for examples demonstrate the left knee moving as Watson said and Wright did.  It's the whole point in the older motion,  if we say it's not then we are not discussing the old school pivot.

That's what you had to say in response to "I don't see how the left knee moves as a point of contention"? Again, the other thread existed because there was a huge myth out there about maintaining the same flex in the trail knee.

No such myth or disparity exists re: the lead knee.

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Mickeys head moves off the ball,  she has some tilt away from target her arms and club go to her right while her left knee moves to the right,  her right leg has the weight and is her balance point on the backswing.  From face on look at the angle her right leg is at.  It's not vertical and that makes a very big difference.

Her head doesn't move off the ball much (well within the "steady head" idea, particularly with a driver), of course she has some tilt away from the target - because her hips don't sway back, and her weight shifts slightly to the right. Very little more than someone with a "modern" golf swing.

Mickey 50%.jpg

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Ok,  thought the word is a common term and easy to understand.  I will try again and say it's the only place there's tension.

It's not the only place there's "tension."

And no, "loaded" may be a common word, but it can have a bunch of meanings. Your right leg is not the only thing that's "loaded" in ANY full swing in golf. Again, the wrists, the arm across the chest, the elbow, your ankles, your torso is turned… all can be "loaded."

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I bet the optimal impact on the wound balata would be different from the pro v but it's just a guess.

That's my point. One of 'em anyway.

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Its not my intent for the discussion to become a war of words.  I have not attacked the mod swing and have said repeatedly it is effective and efficient.

I haven't attacked whatever it is you're trying to talk about.

I am, however, trying to suss out what it is you're trying to talk about.

Because if it's "the left knee should be allowed, sometimes, to move back to the right" then I don't think you'll find much disagreement.

You seem to think it's more than that, though.

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It is however more than just a way to get more turn for the inflexible.  I do not believe all these fantastic golfers just did it out of ignorance.

I don't think they did either, but the reasons they did it may have changed, or the amount of understanding we have of the golf swing has certainly changed, or what's important in the golf swing may have changed, or a bunch of other things.

While writing this, @billchao answered that pretty well too, IMO.

I guess, since I don't know what you're actually trying to convey here, I'll drop out for now until you can figure out what it is you're trying to say.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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