Wind, weather, and handicaps..

[dennyjones]

21 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Oddly enough, I shot my best score of the year on one of the worst of days. The wind must have blown all my wayward shots back onto the greens and fairways.

The weather that day: https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCAD/2017/4/7/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Cadillac&req_state=MI&req_statename=Michigan&reqdb.zip=49601&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999

My round that day: https://www.gamegolf.com/player/JonMa1/round/1476807

Jon,

I wouldn't have even played in that weather.  Kudos to you for doing so and playing well.

[lastings]

28 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Oddly enough, I shot my best score of the year on one of the worst of days. The wind must have blown all my wayward shots back onto the greens and fairways.

The weather that day: https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCAD/2017/4/7/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Cadillac&req_state=MI&req_statename=Michigan&reqdb.zip=49601&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999

My round that day: https://www.gamegolf.com/player/JonMa1/round/1476807

Thats a cool site.   didn't know a site with historical weather existed, nor did I know there was a site that showed actual wind speeds...   

That said, looks like my guess of 40 mph gusts wasn't too far off!

 

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KVTN/2017/6/27/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Valentine&req_state=NE&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=69201&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999

 

  

 

 

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, dennyjones said:

Jon,

I wouldn't have even played in that weather.  Kudos to you for doing so and playing well.

Thanks. You know how it is that time of the year Denny. We've been stuck in the house posting in the Winter Depression thread and are just chomping at the bit waiting for the courses to open. The low score was an anomaly. 

2 hours ago, lastings said:

That said, looks like my guess of 40 mph gusts wasn't too far off!

Those are like gale force winds. Must have been brutal.

[Dave2512]

19 hours ago, lastings said:

  I'm just thinking in a much broader sense.   i.e. the person that live in West Texas vs. the person that lives in Scottsdale.   dealing with high winds round after round after round would have a pretty significant effect on handicap vs. playing in perfect calm weather every round.   and, since there is no real way account for the unusual weather on a round by round basis, there really isn't a way to normalize handicaps between the two.   

Hard to say but for similarly rated courses golfers with like handicaps should be similarly skilled if they accurately return scores. When you look at stats for ranges of golfers they tend to match up somewhat closely regardless of where they are located. My experience is my handicap travels well relative to course ratings. I don't expect to play as well a golfer with the same handicap that regularly plays courses rated 3 strokes higher than the course I usually play. Akin to the differences in golfers with the same handicap that play different tees. I'd be curious to know what value is assigned to prevailing wind because it's always windy here.

[DaveP043]

19 hours ago, lastings said:

I'm just thinking in a much broader sense.   i.e. the person that live in West Texas vs. the person that lives in Scottsdale.   dealing with high winds round after round after round would have a pretty significant effect on handicap vs. playing in perfect calm weather every round.   and, since there is no real way account for the unusual weather on a round by round basis, there really isn't a way to normalize handicaps between the two.   

I think that when you play in certain conditions for most of your rounds, you learn to adjust to them. Most handicaps are used locally, that is, very few of us travel regularly outside of our home region for a handicap competition.  The way you've asked this, what comes to my mind is whether someone used to wind can adapt to calm conditions as well or better than the guy from a calm area adapts to wind. And I simply don't know.  I do know that I'm used to a predominant wind at my home course, and when its really calm, I have to change my "normal" club selection to account for the lack of wind.  A similarly question, can someone who is used to soft fairways and receptive greens adapt to very firm conditions, and vice-versa?  Again, I don't know.  

[Dave2512]

I honestly don't play much different in every day wind, the 0-10 mph stuff is what I consider calm conditions. Over 10 mph and it requires small adjustments similar how I approach playing to an elevated green, it's a club or so.

In winds over 20 mph where it's knocking down drives and blowing balls sideways is not an everyday occurrence any where I can think of. Just looked at Accuweather to see what going on in Lubbock and Scottsdale, 97 and sunny in TX with 12 mph wind and 97 and sunny in AZ with 6 mph wind. Here in CO it's 81 with 6 mph wind.

[shortstop20]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:04 AM, lastings said:

So..   I have a question for y'all.  

I've been working hard to reduce my handicap (basically, been working hard to become a better player and would like my handicap to reflect that).   

Yesterday I was playing a course called The Prairie Club in Valentine, NE.   
--Side note:  If you are ever traveling through the sand hills of Nebraska, I highly, highly recommend this course.   it's absolutely great.--  

Anyways, while I was playing the wind was absolutely absurd.  15-20 mph constant wind with gusts up to 40mph.   Thats said, I had everything working for me.  crushing my driver on every hole.   I was playing the wind well.  despite the wind, I hit 11 fairways.  I hit 3 of 4 greens on par-3's (which I thought was impressive as I was often aiming 20yds offline and having a crosswind blow it on course.   

but..   when you're looking at a 558yd par 5 with a 20-40mph wind blowing directly in your face, you just aren't getting there in 3.  This wind was literally knocking 100 yds off my drives.  
Worst of all, this course had extremely fast and hilly greens.   putting was basically impossible.  I putt decently and still had 39 putts.   There was one instance where I had a 15ft putt on a bit of a sidehill with the wind blowing directly towards the downhill side of the green.   I hit a putt that came to rest about an inch from the cup.  just as it was coming to a rest, the wind picked up and gave it another roll...    then it picked up a bit of speed as it went downhill a bit and the wind gust kept blowing..   then it picked up more speed.   then it kept rolling.   then it kept rolling.   then I found that a 1-inch tap in put had rolled 20-yds down to the fringe at the bottom of the green.   which took me 3 more putts to get into the hole.   

anyways..   I ended up shooting an 89.  This 15.5 differential was my worst in my past 5 or 6 rounds.  but, from a ball striking-standpoint, this was probably my best round of the bunch.   Given the conditions, I thought the 89 was an excellent score.   But, this will not reflect positively on my handicap card.   Nor, does this represent how I played.   The blustery conditions seem unaccounted for in any way.  It doesn't seems to me that this is accurately reflected in the handicap system.  

 

your thoughts?  

 

 

 

I have played the Prairie Club. I can't imagine how you could get 100 yards knocked off your drives there or anywhere. 

The most important thing into the wind is to respect the wind and take the proper amount of club. It sounds like you did that well for the most part. I played a 550 yard par 5 in similar conditions just last weekend and it was Driver, hybrid, short iron, on in 3. On a non-windy day it would have been Driver, wood of some sort and probably a wedge. 

Where your putt blew off the green, that was unfair for sure and all because of the conditions, not something that would normally happen. 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by shortstop20

[David in FL]

20 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think that when you play in certain conditions for most of your rounds, you learn to adjust to them. Most handicaps are used locally, that is, very few of us travel regularly outside of our home region for a handicap competition.  The way you've asked this, what comes to my mind is whether someone used to wind can adapt to calm conditions as well or better than the guy from a calm area adapts to wind. And I simply don't know.  I do know that I'm used to a predominant wind at my home course, and when its really calm, I have to change my "normal" club selection to account for the lack of wind.  A similarly question, can someone who is used to soft fairways and receptive greens adapt to very firm conditions, and vice-versa?  Again, I don't know.  

This. 

Better players also tend to adjust, not only to difficult conditions, but to differing conditions better.  Hence their handicaps "travel" better on those few occasions when they do travel to a completely different area.

[lastings]

10 minutes ago, shortstop20 said:

I have played the Prairie Club. I can't imagine how you could get 100 yards knocked off your drives there or anywhere. 

 

I asked the pro there, he said it was not at all a normal day.  But, wind was literally gusting up to 40 mph.  

I don't know what a normal mph to yardage calculation is, but I definitely had a drive that went 175-180, when my normal drive is about 275..   now, I do play a small fade in my drive, which gets beat up more than a draw, but.. the point remains. 40 mph is no joke.

 

 

 

[lastings]

52 minutes ago, shortstop20 said:

I have played the Prairie Club.

Pretty cool course, though, isn't it? 

[shortstop20]

4 minutes ago, lastings said:

Pretty cool course, though, isn't it? 

Spectacular.........hoping to visit again later this summer. 

It's only 230 miles away from me so it's not too bad of a drive.

Did you get to play both the Dunes and the Pines?

Edited June 30, 2017 by shortstop20

[lastings]

28 minutes ago, shortstop20 said:

Spectacular.........hoping to visit again later this summer. 

It's only 230 miles away from me so it's not too bad of a drive.

Did you get to play both the Dunes and the Pines?

Well...  Technically, I only got to play Pines (i'm sure you're aware the members and public alternate courses each day).   

Green fee is for unlimited golf and , given the weather, the course was pretty empty and I had the first tee time of the day as a single.  So I took a lap and a half on the Pines, and then snuck over and played about 14 on the dunes.  (don't tell the members ).   

But, I'm glad I spent most of that day on the Pines.  at least half of the course had trees blocking the wind a bit..  

Also, I can't believe the Dunes course is 8,100 yds from the tips... (no, I didn't play from there)     I'm thinking Tom Lehman had US Open in mind when he designed it..  

Edited June 30, 2017 by lastings

[iacas]

On 6/28/2017 at 0:04 PM, lastings said:

This wind was literally knocking 100 yds off my drives.

No, it wasn't.

On 6/28/2017 at 3:04 PM, No Mulligans said:

Still a good question for @iacas .  From reading that link, it only states distance is adjusted based on prevailing wind for course rating/slope.  However, wind doesn't just affect distance, it makes it harder to hit targets, and high winds are also uncomfortable mentally to play in.

Distance is all that's adjusted, yes. Effective playing length. Just like for forced layups.

On 6/28/2017 at 6:10 PM, lastings said:

I'm just thinking in a much broader sense.   i.e. the person that live in West Texas vs. the person that lives in Scottsdale.

The wind in Texas isn't that bad. It can be bad, but generally speaking, it's not that bad. Texas golf courses also tend to be firmer, so players get more roll, have fewer trees, and whatever. We get rain here in the northern states, and have soft, muddy conditions, etc.

Things work themselves out. Texas golfers aren't all playing below their handicaps when they travel simply because they're used to playing in the wind.

[dennyjones]

That video was very cool and informative.   Thanks for sharing.

[lastings]

On 6/30/2017 at 3:48 PM, iacas said:

No, it wasn't.

 

I'm not sure this video really accounts for playing a fade off the tee that turns into a massive slice in a 40 mph headwind.   

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, lastings said:

I'm not sure this video really accounts for playing a fade off the tee that turns into a massive slice in a 40 mph headwind.   

It's still not gonna knock 100 yards off. Your ball isn't in the air long enough.

[Dave2512]

Can't speak for anyone else but if I hit driver 10-12 times a round no two are alike. It would be a guess at best to determine exactly how much wind hurt or helped in yards because my best to worst might vary 80 yards on a calm day.

[BuckeyeNut]

Learn to play in wind better.  We all play in wind..

 

whether your average score is 68, 78, or 88.....we are all in the same "BOAT" so to speak.

Edited July 3, 2017 by BuckeyeNut