Par 5 Strategy in a Mike Malaska Video... Do you agree?

[Hardspoon]

8 hours ago, cutchemist42 said:

He said he felt most would benefit from putting the driver away, IF they know their Avg. Driver+Avg. 3-Wood/Hybrid would not give them a realistic chance of reaching the green in 2 shots. He said this way, you avoid the club that might give you penalties or a bad position for your 2nd shot.

Is this a sound way to view par 5s?

I voted "no".  I agree with a lot of what's said above, but I think there's also a fundamental flaw in his overall reasoning: the selection of a club for a shot should not be dependent on the club for the NEXT shot. 

The goal for each individual shot is to advance the ball as close to the hole as you can without undue risk (yes, "undue" is subjective).  It is not to advance the ball to a specific spot/area/distance.  I think the "layup to a nice distance" or "play it for 3-wood and 5-iron" is something that might work in rare cases for pros, but for 99% of golfers is a pointless complication of what should be a simple premise.

There are enough tricky decisions involved in "advance the ball as far as you can safely"...no need to make things harder.

[GST1974]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

On a single hole? No, it doesn't determine the outcome.

Over a hundred holes? Yes, it does, and you're better off playing for the lowest average score.

Quite often, the best strategy is to hit it pretty far. Distance is a form of accuracy and makes the next shot after that easier.

Check out LSW, @GST1974.

I tend to view golf as a collection of various acquired skills and talents.  Distance is important to an extent, but so being able to control the direction of the ball in terms of hitting it straight, fading or drawing it, hitting knockdown shots to penetrate a head wind, being able to get out of a bunker reliably, being able to chip, reading puts with the plumb bob method and managing distance control, etc.

What good is more distance if you keep hitting it in the rough or can't get up and down in regulation?  If I can rely on most of my clubs to hit the green and keep it on the fringe or in the rough next to the green and hit a decent chip shot if needed to within five to ten feet, its just as good if not better than relying on risky driver play.

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

I tend to view golf as a collection of various acquired skills and talents.  Distance is important to an extent, but so being able to control the direction of the ball in terms of hitting it straight, fading or drawing it, hitting knockdown shots to penetrate a head wind, being able to get out of a bunker reliably, being able to chip, reading puts with the plumb bob method and managing distance control, etc.

What good is more distance if you keep hitting it in the rough or can't get up and down in regulation?  If I can rely on most of my clubs to hit the green and keep it on the fringe or in the rough next to the green and hit a decent chip shot if needed to within five to ten feet, its just as good if not better than relying on risky driver play.

I'll ignore the plumb bob part for now…

And, I'll never really understand why people always assume that "distance" means "rough" and "can't get up and down"? Distance often means you'll have less chance of missing the green, for example, and thus less need to get up and down.

Your last sentence isn't all that accurate. If your driver is that much of what I'd call a glaring weakness, then I'd recommend working on it quite a bit. The driver - tee shots - is likely the single most important club in the bag. Giving yourself even 20 yards less into greens - even an extra tee shot or two per round find the rough - is a proven way to shoot lower scores.

Like I said… You should check out LSW.

[GST1974]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'll ignore the plumb bob part for now…

And, I'll never really understand why people always assume that "distance" means "rough" and "can't get up and down"? Distance often means you'll have less chance of missing the green, for example, and thus less need to get up and down.

Your last sentence isn't all that accurate. If your driver is that much of what I'd call a glaring weakness, then I'd recommend working on it quite a bit. The driver - tee shots - is likely the single most important club in the bag. Giving yourself even 20 yards less into greens - even an extra tee shot or two per round find the rough - is a proven way to shoot lower scores.

Like I said… You should check out LSW.

Maybe we are splitting hairs.  I am not against using a driver when the chances of success are decent.  But I see a lot of pros going for extra distance ending up in the rough and losing what advantage they had over some one else going for less.  I think making the fairway 40 yards behind someone in the rough has a better chance of making the GIR and 1 or 2 putting, where as the player in the rough would be lucky to hold the green considering the lack of back spin their ball would have.  I for one don't have a problem using a 3 to 5 iron to land the ball on the green and keep it at least within the fringe.

I did check out your book and you put more emphasis on distance than the short game.  I just don't agree with that strategy.  I will admit though that you have an awesome resume and wish you good luck with what you do.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

I think making the fairway 40 yards behind someone in the rough has a better chance of making the GIR and 1 or 2 putting, where as the player in the rough would be lucky to hold the green considering the lack of back spin their ball would have.

If you're gonna be in the rough every time versus the fairway every time, then yeah, that might make sense… but that's not how this stuff works.

In reality adding 40 yards or whatever doesn't result in a huge drop in fairways hit percentages.

And holding the greens? Many golfers are more likely to hold the green with a 9I from the rough than a 5I from any lie.

Never mind the fact that a lot of golfers actually like being in the rough, because the ball can sit up for them. I've had scramble partners who like to move the ball into the rough so they can "get under it easier."

6 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

I did check out your book and you put more emphasis on distance than the short game.  I just don't agree with that strategy.  I will admit though that you have an awesome resume and wish you good luck with what you do.

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's not really an opinion.

Consider this: if you were forced to play two rounds of golf, one right-handed for all shots outside of 65 yards and left-handed for shots inside of 65 yards, and the other the opposite, assuming you're a righty, which score would be lower?

The one where you hit your putts and chips lefty would be significantly lower.

The full swing matters quite a bit more than the short game and putting.

Not an opinion.

[GST1974]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

If you're gonna be in the rough every time versus the fairway every time, then yeah, that might make sense… but that's not how this stuff works.

In reality adding 40 yards or whatever doesn't result in a huge drop in fairways hit percentages.

And holding the greens? Many golfers are more likely to hold the green with a 9I from the rough than a 5I from any lie.

Never mind the fact that a lot of golfers actually like being in the rough, because the ball can sit up for them. I've had scramble partners who like to move the ball into the rough so they can "get under it easier."

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's not really an opinion.

Consider this: if you were forced to play two rounds of golf, one right-handed for all shots outside of 65 yards and left-handed for shots inside of 65 yards, and the other the opposite, assuming you're a righty, which score would be lower?

The one where you hit your putts and chips lefty would be significantly lower.

The full swing matters quite a bit more than the short game and putting.

Not an opinion.

I will admit I have not had much success from the rough, and often I get stuck between trees, branches, leaves, rocks on the ground and have to chip back out in the fairway to avoid getting into deeper trouble.  And from the rough I have a hard time stopping the ball due to the lack of backspin imparted on the ball.  I have also lost balls in the water hazards quite a few times.

I don't have much experience with specialty shots that can get me out of trouble.  My swing is pretty good though and I try to control it to keep it in bounds and not make a big score on some hole which would end my hopes of breaking 100.  A few penalty shots here and there, a few people complaining about slow play is enough to aggravate you and make you not want to play golf that often.  I am a high handicapper after all.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

I am a high handicapper after all.

Maybe stop working on your short game so much…

[David in FL]

With few exceptions, longer is better....

[Vinsk]

33 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

I for one don't have a problem using a 3 to 5 iron to land the ball on the green and keep it at least within the fringe.

This, and you're a high handicapper? Not sure I believe you do this as often nor as easy as you think. Just saying...

[GST1974]

 

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Maybe stop working on your short game so much…

My short game doesn't cost me any strokes.  I rarely miss puts from inside 10 feet when I take the time to read the break and line up my put.  My bunker play is pretty good as long as the ball is not buried.  Most of my lost strokes is from wild tee shots or bad second shots on par 5s, especially with the 3 and 5 wood.  The ball goes into the trees or water hazard and that is two wasted strokes.  Then I get aggravated and shot a bogey on the next hole too.

Edited December 1, 2017 by GST1974

[David in FL]

2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

This, and you're a high handicapper? Not sure I believe you do this as often nor as easy as you think. Just saying...

Yeah.  Wish I could say the same...

[GST1974]

8 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

This, and you're a high handicapper? Not sure I believe you do this as often nor as easy as you think. Just saying...

I don't have a problem with any iron.  I have even shot 1 irons pretty decent on the range, but I rarely use it on the course.  All my problems are with the woods, unless the ball is teed up and I make 2 clock swing.  If the ball is on the ground, that is pretty bad news.  The hard part of using long irons is figuring out the carry and roll, so as to not go past the green with the roll, especially if the greens are firm.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

My short game doesn't cost me any strokes.  I rarely miss puts from inside 10 feet when I take the time to read the break and line up my put. 

PGA Tour pros make 50% of their putts from 8' on smoother greens than you play on.

12 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

My bunker play is pretty good as long as the ball is not buried.  Most of my lost strokes is from wild tee shots or bad second shots on par 5s, especially with the 3 and 5 wood.

Uhhhh…

2 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

I don't have a problem with any iron.  I have even shot 1 irons pretty decent on the range, but I rarely use it on the course.  All my problems are with the woods, unless the ball is teed up and I make 2 clock swing.  If the ball is on the ground, that is pretty bad news.  The hard part of using long irons is figuring out the carry and roll, so as to not go past the green with the roll, especially if the greens are firm.

Uhhhh…

Guys, we found a unicorn!

[Vinsk]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Guys, we found a unicorn!

Finally! Years of searching, and there it is.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Vinsk

[GST1974]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

PGA Tour pros make 50% of their putts from 8' on smoother greens than you play on.

Uhhhh…

Uhhhh…

Guys, we found a unicorn!

I don't keep stats on my putting on each hole from the correlating distances.  I am really good from 10 feet and within, I also make longer puts.  Maybe rarely was an overstatement, but all I know is that I don't lose strokes on the green.  You don't have a point, just hanging on to words to discredit me. I really don't care what people choose to believe.  I have fun playing golf, and know both my strong points and weak points.  My irons are rock solid, my woods are my weak point.  Simple as that!

[iacas]

1 minute ago, GST1974 said:

I don't keep stats on my putting on each hole from the correlating distances.  I am really good from 10 feet and within, I also make longer puts.  Maybe rarely was an overstatement, but all I know is that I don't lose strokes on the green.  You don't have a point, just hanging on to words to discredit me. I really don't care what people choose to believe.  I have fun playing golf, and know both my strong points and weak points.  My irons are rock solid, my woods are my weak point.  Simple as that!

Like I said, a unicorn.

• You hit 1-irons well.
• You hold the greens with 3-irons, or at least 5-irons.
• You make almost every putt from 10' and in.
• You lose all your strokes with your woods.
• You struggle to break 100.

Yeah, no. Since you don't care, though, I'm done talking about it.

[Vinsk]

6 minutes ago, GST1974 said:

I don't keep stats on my putting on each hole from the correlating distances.  I am really good from 10 feet and within, I also make longer puts.  Maybe rarely was an overstatement, but all I know is that I don't lose strokes on the green.  You don't have a point, just hanging on to words to discredit me. I really don't care what people choose to believe.  I have fun playing golf, and know both my strong points and weak points.  My irons are rock solid, my woods are my weak point.  Simple as that!

So put your driver and 3W away. Get that 1 iron you crush on the range, add a 2i in there. Presto! You're a scratch golfer. Simple as that!

[GST1974]

9 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So put your driver and 3W away. Get that 1 iron you crush on the range, add a 2i in there. Presto! You're a scratch golfer. Simple as that!

I don't think its that simple.  Golf is much more than just having a decent swing.  I have to learn the specialty shots more like knockdowns, bigger fades and draws, playing from bad lies, managing the rough better, etc.

But I think I will definitely get it into single digits soon, within a few years, by working on my weak points.