Golf Channel Am Tour - Is It Too Expensive?

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

I have no problem with people making money, but a director clearing $500-$1000 for running a one day tournament seems a bit excessive to me.

Those two parts of the sentence are almost at odds with each other.

Planning a Golf Channel Am Tour one-day tournament probably takes about 50 hours of work. At least.

You think it's "excessive" to be paid $10 to $20/hour? I realize you did it for $20 or $30 entry fees… but those people aren't you.

[NM Golf]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Planning a Golf Channel Am Tour one-day tournament probably takes about 50 hours of work. At least.

I've set up two day member guest tournaments with all kinds of extras, calcuttas, tee prizes, and putting contests etc. They didn't take anywhere near 50 hours to set up, especially with the new tournament set up applications like TPP and Golf Genius. I can set up a 100 man tournament in Golf Genius in less than an hour and score it in less than 45 minutes. Add in all the extra stuff like checking people in, handing out prizes, etc thats maybe 5-6 hours. At the very most, if you work slow, the whole thing can easily be done in less than 10 hours. 

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Those two parts of the sentence are almost at odds with each other.

You think it's "excessive" to be paid $10 to $20/hour? I realize you did it for $20 or $30 entry fees… but those people aren't you.

I will not fault anyone for making a buck, however those bucks will not come from my pocket if I do not feel the product is worth the cost. The three associations I play in around Albuquerque have people who set up their tournaments for little of no money. The Tournament fees are around $30 plus greens fees ($35-50) and nearly 100% of my entry fees are paid back in prize money. 

Like I said, it's all about value. Value is a matter of opinion. The thread asks if the GCAT is too expensive, in my opinion it is, especially considering in my neck of the woods there are several alternatives that give you way more bang for your buck. 

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

I've set up two day member guest tournaments with all kinds of extras, calcuttas, tee prizes, and putting contests etc. They didn't take anywhere near 50 hours to set up, especially with the new tournament set up applications like TPP and Golf Genius.

There are plenty of reasons why your experiences don't parallel the experiences of setting up a Golf Channel Am Tour event at a course that doesn't have an affiliation with the guy setting up the event.

I've helped run events for the EDGA, and I've helped set up and run college events. 50 hours was me trying to give a low estimate.

The event day itself takes 10+ hours, and that's just that day.

27 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Add in all the extra stuff like checking people in, handing out prizes, etc thats maybe 5-6 hours. At the very most, if you work slow, the whole thing can easily be done in less than 10 hours.

We're clearly not talking about the same kind of thing. By "run the event" I'm talking about everything that takes place before-hand, too. They don't just work the day before and then the day of the event.

I'm not arguing the value of the events. I don't have an opinion on them. I'm just commenting on your idea that the tournament directors seem to be taking home bank for doing very little work.

Hell, the woman who runs the USKG tour events in Pittsburgh makes a reasonable amount of money, and more power to her - she spends more than 20 hours per event doing her work, and she has the USKG site handling a bunch of stuff for her. But between calling and scheduling everything with the courses, dealing with things day-of, etc. she easily spends 20+ hours.

27 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

At the very most, if you work slow, the whole thing can easily be done in less than 10 hours. 

My wife's estimate, btw, was 80 hours. "Two full weeks" she said, and I asked for clarification.

If you honestly think that a GC Am Tour director is putting together and running entire tournaments and everything else entailed in 10 hours, then you should apply to make an easy $50 to $100/hour.

---

If you don't see the value, that's fine. I'm not arguing that side of things at all, because that's for everyone to decide for themselves.

But I'd wager quite a bit of money that you're way, way off base with the amount of time required to run a tournament.

Goodness, @mvmac and I spent over a hundred hours arranging The Newport Cup, and we had Talamore booking things for us, and we knew all of the players, and it was a very small "field" of course.

[NM Golf]

Just now, iacas said:

I'm not arguing the value of the events. I don't have an opinion on them. I'm just commenting on your idea that the tournament directors seem to be taking home bank for doing very little work

It's not even about that. I did say the director's compensation seems excessive, but maybe they are putting in a lot of work, I don't know. Basically whether the director's compensation is fair or not is a moot point. What I do know is there are alternative golf associations available to me. Associations where the people setting up the tournaments are either not working that hard or do not need to be compensated at such a high price. They then pass on the savings to me with much lower tournament fees. Therefor, I can receive a comparable tournament experience at a much lower price at the same courses as the GCAT. 

 

 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

It's not even about that.

It is by definition - that's the only part of your message I wrote about.

The rest - your own personal opinion on the "value" provided, I addressed with this:

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

If you don't see the value, that's fine. I'm not arguing that side of things at all, because that's for everyone to decide for themselves.

[BushwoodCC]

5 hours ago, NM Golf said:

It's not even about that. I did say the director's compensation seems excessive, but maybe they are putting in a lot of work, I don't know. Basically whether the director's compensation is fair or not is a moot point. What I do know is there are alternative golf associations available to me. Associations where the people setting up the tournaments are either not working that hard or do not need to be compensated at such a high price. They then pass on the savings to me with much lower tournament fees. Therefor, I can receive a comparable tournament experience at a much lower price at the same courses as the GCAT. 

I guess you just need to not play GCAT events. If you don’t see the value, that is your call. Meanwhile, a ton of people nationwide don’t agree and are thankful for the opportunity.  Comparing your experience running events to what the GCAT tour directors do is inaccurate. @iacas wife’s estimate is much closer to the truth - and given the time requirements and frequency of the events, many of these people treat this as a job. Nothing anyone says seems draw a picture of what goes into this that resonates with you. Let’s agree to disagree - I don’t think it is too expensive, and you do. Suggesting anyone is “lining their pockets” is comical. 

Also - let me know when your local association gets you on Sawgrass, Pinehurst, PGA West, Whistling Straits,etc...

Edited December 3, 2018 by iacas
Fixed bad quote/addition

[fburns]

I certainly didn't want to cause people to get upset with each other. My post was not to suggest anyone's behavior is inappropriate. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who set up these tournaments and deal with the rest of us. In fact, it is their efforts that make the tour so enjoyable. I am going to miss that for only one reason, the tour is now too expensive for me to play on a regular basis. For those who can afford it, I wish them well. I am a physician with some means and I began wondering if I am making this decision, what are others doing? The advertising for the GCAT suggests that it is a tour for all amateurs. In my opinion, it is becoming a tour for those with money....a common problem in golf today.

[NM Golf]

5 hours ago, BushwoodCC said:

Also - let me know when your local association gets you on Sawgrass, Pinehurst, PGA West, Whistling Straits,etc...

I am only talking about at the local level.  And I played in a tournament at Pinehurst last year...for free!

But...since you brought it up lets take a look at the "Major Championship" at the TPC Scottsdale next weekend. The cost for this tournament is $625. This includes a round at both the Stadium and the Champions Course, prize fund, and trophies. If I went and just played those courses it would cost me $338. So the GCAT is charging $287 on top of that to run the tournament (what a deal!). It looks like they have 181 people signed up so that means the Golf Channel is collecting just under $52,000 on top of the greens fees. Those better be some nice ass trophies!

Look obviously people like the tour, I have a good friend that plays in it and loves it. I just think its a bit overpriced, probably part of the reason it's never really caught on here in New Mexico. 

[BushwoodCC]

9 hours ago, NM Golf said:

I am only talking about at the local level.  And I played in a tournament at Pinehurst last year...for free!

But...since you brought it up lets take a look at the "Major Championship" at the TPC Scottsdale next weekend. The cost for this tournament is $625. This includes a round at both the Stadium and the Champions Course, prize fund, and trophies. If I went and just played those courses it would cost me $338. So the GCAT is charging $287 on top of that to run the tournament (what a deal!). It looks like they have 181 people signed up so that means the Golf Channel is collecting just under $52,000 on top of the greens fees. Those better be some nice ass trophies!

Look obviously people like the tour, I have a good friend that plays in it and loves it. I just think its a bit overpriced, probably part of the reason it's never really caught on here in New Mexico. 

thisisgettingold

12 flights in a two day event:

- prize pool is probably 25k for 12 flights of 15

- player welcome kit (usually a dozen premium balls, a shirt, etc) valued at lets say $50 - $9,000

- payroll costs for 15 people working tbe event (15*20 per hour * 24 hours) - $7,200

- lodging and meals for staff (15 *4 nights * 150 per day- 9,000

There is roughly 52k right there. Before anyone makes a nickel. 

 

[NM Golf]

1 hour ago, BushwoodCC said:

thisisgettingold

12 flights in a two day event:

- prize pool is probably 25k for 12 flights of 15

- player welcome kit (usually a dozen premium balls, a shirt, etc) valued at lets say $50 - $9,000

- payroll costs for 15 people working tbe event (15*20 per hour * 24 hours) - $7,200

- lodging and meals for staff (15 *4 nights * 150 per day- 9,000

There is roughly 52k right there. Before anyone makes a nickel. 

 

😜 you sound like the government explaining away a $5000 hammer. 

I guess the problem is that normally the golf course's own association runs it's tournaments. The golf course uses its own staff and/or association volunteers to run the event. The golf course makes it money through greens fees, cart fees, and gift certificates given to the players as prizes. When someone like the golf channel runs a tournament they don't see that green fee money, nor do they make any money off the gift certificates. They need to take their money off the top. I understand that. But justifying the cost doesn't change the fact that the tournaments are really expensive. 

Comes down to this, the tournament costs $625, so you have to win to get your money back and that's assuming the payout is more than $625. Even then the USGA caps your winnings at $750 so you clear $125...If you win. The places where I play I clear that and it costs me $30 to get in.

Listen @BushwoodCC you can justify the cost all you want, because in your opinion the value is there, I get that. I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you play very well while enjoying yourself. I stand by my personal opinion that its overpriced and the value is not there. After all, isn't that what the OP asked for, people's opinions?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, NM Golf said:

Listen @BushwoodCC you can justify the cost all you want, because in your opinion the value is there, I get that. I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you play very well while enjoying yourself. I stand by my personal opinion that its overpriced and the value is not there. After all, isn't that what the OP asked for, people's opinions?

That’s all it would have been except you kept making uninformed guesses about how much money was being pocketed by various parties.

WW has scrambles here and it’s not uncommon for the entry to be $500 per foursome. The greens fee is ~$40. First place is usually about $100 in shop credit.

We are aware you don’t think it’s a good value. But instead of stating just that you kept telling people how much they were being ripped off without facts.

[BushwoodCC]

11 hours ago, NM Golf said:

😜 you sound like the government explaining away a $5000 hammer. 

I guess the problem is that normally the golf course's own association runs it's tournaments. The golf course uses its own staff and/or association volunteers to run the event. The golf course makes it money through greens fees, cart fees, and gift certificates given to the players as prizes. When someone like the golf channel runs a tournament they don't see that green fee money, nor do they make any money off the gift certificates. They need to take their money off the top. I understand that. But justifying the cost doesn't change the fact that the tournaments are really expensive. 

Comes down to this, the tournament costs $625, so you have to win to get your money back and that's assuming the payout is more than $625. Even then the USGA caps your winnings at $750 so you clear $125...If you win. The places where I play I clear that and it costs me $30 to get in.

Listen @BushwoodCC you can justify the cost all you want, because in your opinion the value is there, I get that. I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you play very well while enjoying yourself. I stand by my personal opinion that its overpriced and the value is not there. After all, isn't that what the OP asked for, people's opinions?

What I sound like is someone who has FACTS (I know, it sucks when your argument gets destroyed by facts). Your comparison to a “5k hammer” is weak, and has no basis in this conversation. As I said initially and politely - your opinion is yours, and I have no desire to change that.... the GCAT isn’t for you.... we all heard that. However, when one makes statements that do not stand up when presented with facts, the decent thing to do is admit you are wrong. Otherwise, you continue to highlight the fact that you know nothing about the topic (the true cost of the event and where the money goes).

Oh yeah, the GCAT doesn’t get any “government subsidies” like the associations you referenced earlier...  #freemarketcapitalism y’all..... Peace out...

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by BushwoodCC
Spelling

[Vinsk]

12 hours ago, NM Golf said:

Comes down to this, the tournament costs $625, so you have to win to get your money back

I know nothing about what you guys are discussing. But this statement isn’t the craziest concept I’ve heard when in it comes to a competition. 

[NM Golf]

15 hours ago, BushwoodCC said:

What I sound like is someone who has FACTS (I know, it sucks when your argument gets destroyed by facts). Your comparison to a “5k hammer” is weak, and has no basis in this conversation. As I said initially and politely - your opinion is yours, and I have no desire to change that.... the GCAT isn’t for you.... we all heard that. However, when one makes statements that do not stand up when presented with facts, the decent thing to do is admit you are wrong. Otherwise, you continue to highlight the fact that you know nothing about the topic (the true cost of the event and where the money goes).

Pretty sure I gave my opinion. There are no facts because the GCAT seems to be pretty tight lipped about where the money goes, smart move on their part. The only fact I need is the tournaments I play in cost half as much and the payout is just as good or better. Do you work for the GCAT by chance?

15 hours ago, BushwoodCC said:

Oh yeah, the GCAT doesn’t get any “government subsidies” like the associations you referenced earlier...  #freemarketcapitalism y’all..... Peace out...

That may be the most ridiculous thing you've said.  What government subsidies do you speak of? Talk about a weak argument you're not even making sense.

On 12/3/2018 at 10:42 AM, iacas said:

We are aware you don’t think it’s a good value. But instead of stating just that you kept telling people how much they were being ripped off without facts.

You'll have to show me where I said it was a rip off. I never implied it was a rip off, I explicitly said I think they charge too much because they have to pay people too much. You inferred rip off on your own. It would only be a rip off if they charged that much and then didn't even hold the event. 

Again not sure why people are in such an uproar over this. I thought we were giving opinions on whether the GCAT is too expensive. IMHO it is.  I may have speculated on why that is, and perhaps my speculations in the face of lack of actual data provided by the GCAT were incorrect. I don't know. All I know is, where I live, there are alternate entities that hold monthly tournaments that are comparable to the GCAT at a much lower cost than the GCAT. 

Choices it's all about choices #freemarketcapitalism 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

You'll have to show me where I said it was a rip off. I never implied it was a rip off

You have, yes, and I didn't quote the words "rip off," so I'm not going to show you those words exactly.

You've talked at length about how much money various people are pocketing, all seemingly without any actual knowledge of the time they spend or how much they're actually making. That's been my only issue with your commentary here.

7 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Again not sure why people are in such an uproar over this.

I don't see anyone in an uproar. You're the one who keeps going on.

You don't think it's a good value; that much is clear. Why keep posting? I don't blame @BushwoodCC, as he is just correcting some of your conjecture. And I've told you we get it already.

So again: we get it already. Now stop guessing at why tournaments cost as much as they do and who is making what.

You're uninformed, it seems, on those two topics, and we already know that you think that the GCAT is "too expensive" for you, to use the title of the topic. That's the whole topic, after all.

[BushwoodCC]

2 hours ago, NM Golf said:

Pretty sure I gave my opinion. There are no facts because the GCAT seems to be pretty tight lipped about where the money goes, smart move on their part. The only fact I need is the tournaments I play in cost half as much and the payout is just as good or better. Do you work for the GCAT by chance?

That may be the most ridiculous thing you've said.  What government subsidies do you speak of? Talk about a weak argument you're not even making sense.

You'll have to show me where I said it was a rip off. I never implied it was a rip off, I explicitly said I think they charge too much because they have to pay people too much. You inferred rip off on your own. It would only be a rip off if they charged that much and then didn't even hold the event. 

Again not sure why people are in such an uproar over this. I thought we were giving opinions on whether the GCAT is too expensive. IMHO it is.  I may have speculated on why that is, and perhaps my speculations in the face of lack of actual data provided by the GCAT were incorrect. I don't know. All I know is, where I live, there are alternate entities that hold monthly tournaments that are comparable to the GCAT at a much lower cost than the GCAT. 

Choices it's all about choices #freemarketcapitalism 

I will respectfully suggest you start reading this thread at the beginning:

- You referenced "government subsidies" in one of your posts - that is where that comment came from.

- Other than playing on the GCAT, I have no affiliation. I don't work for them, and never have.

- I do however know some Tour Directors, and know that they do these jobs to earn an income. I can assure they are not getting wealthy from this work, and can also assure they work a lot for what they make. On a one day event, they are at the course early and leave late. They take risks with their time and with the money they invest in running their tours.  They commit to running 30+ events in a year and that means they are committing a weekend to the effort.  

- I provided, repeatedly, FACTS. I've played in the events, I know the costs, I know what the prize pools are, I know what the player welcome bags contain, I know how many people work at the events.  

- You have been repeatedly told your opinion is welcome and nobody is trying to change your mind.  

- You continue to express things that are not factual - and when confronted with facts, you don't want to acknowledge them. I can't say much more than that.  I'm not trying to insult you or challenge your intellect - but I know what I have stated about the GCAT is factual.

 

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

- You referenced "government subsidies" in one of your posts - that is where that comment came from.

Pretty sure that was @RayG, not @NM Golf.

Beyond that, though, @BushwoodCC I've told Danny to move on, as he's shared his opinion, and I'll tell you the same thing: we are aware that you feel they're a good value, and talking about the "extra" stuff outside of answering that question is really not getting us anywhere.

[Buckeyebowman]

As far as I know there are no GCAT events anywhere near me. However, I did play in a local event last year, and I know the guy who runs it works his butt off! Organizing the field with multiple age and HI brackets and liaisoning (is that even a word?) with the one public course and four private clubs that host the play. Not to mention the youth and scramble elements, I can tell you that I wouldn't want the job, no matter the money! 

If you sign up early, it costs $135 for single play, the scramble is more and the youth is less. True there is no prize money at stake, but I thoroughly enjoyed myself! I met a bunch of great guys and got to play a great, old Donald Ross course. If I'm still on the right side of the grass this Summer, I'll play in it again.