Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[ttee9]

.... I just wanted to make a comment about "game improvement" clubs ....


The golf industry makes millions (or should I say, Kazillions.?) on players that are looking for the "quick fix", the "magic club" .....

I think every player is actually looking for "consistency.." ..... the ability to make the same accurate shot time and time again in all conditions (which is hard to do.!) ..... there can be many reasons why we don't, maybe a bad swing habit, perhaps more practice is needed, maybe an extra lesson or two --- "or maybe", the clubs weren't right for us to begin with ... just because my favorite Pro can play it and the golf shop down the street recommended it (let's be honest, they're there to sell product) doesn't make it right for me ...

As in the auto industry .. what sells golf clubs is the name, the promise of a better score, what our favorite Pro was using last week .... as in the car business, we like to buy cars (and clubs) that we think will give us the better ride, more prestige, more control, a promise of better reliability .. and in the case of golf clubs - "consistency" ...

Most players today probably buy too much club and spend the next 6/12/25 months trying to play into them ... and that usually ends up in frustration and a player losing confidence ..

The best thing that could happen is, forget the name on the club .. and find clubs that you feel comfortable with, that you feel good about, clubs that you feel confident with ... and once you've conquered those, then go on ....

[Everardo]

Most players today probably buy too much club and spend the next 6/12/25 months trying to play into them ... and that usually ends up in frustration and a player losing confidence ..

That's a good approach..

[Golfer7945]

When I decided that I was going to learn to hit a golf ball I bought a set of forged blades and went to a pro for swing lessons. I played the blades for one season and I did get to the point where I was hitting the ball fairly well. I then switched to forged cavity backs for the next season (even swap for the blades at my local pro shop). Currently I am playing a set of custom fitted double forged Evolution irons from KZG these irons go from cavity to blade as the clubs increase in loft. (I use Hybrids for the 3 and 4 iron).
Summary! I like the approach of avoiding game improvement irons when the golfer is committed to lessons, practice and Play! Quick note having your clubs built for you gives you the advantage of choosing the correct shaft for your swing speed, your height etc. (find a pro that you trust and consult with him or her) Happy golfing!

[muskegman]

Good swings result in good shots. Anyone who promises a better game through equipment is really missing the point. Thats why I chuckled when "The Perfect Club" commercial came on yesterday. Sure, certain game improvement clubs won't penalize us as much but they won't fix swing faults.

I'm putting better swings on the irons I'm playing now (though I still suck in oh-so-many-ways) than the one's I played previously. I think these irons have forced me to think about how to get the proper result. Game improvement clubs had me tossing iron at the ball and hoping for the best.

A good swing is more important than forgiving equipment.

Good topic. Again.

[A.J.]

I don't know about all this "game improvment" stuff. Its not like pros are all playing blades. I like an oversized iron without to much shelf that feels really solid when struck well.

I can't handle a wide soled club though. I hit the Adams G2 and G3 irons the other day at a golf shop and it was ridiculous. I launched the 4 iron ABOVE my normal ball flight for a wedge.

[Dinkoh]

I agree with that better irons are better for your game. But, it comes at a cost.... My elbows are killing me!

[DDBowdoin]

You just have to be honest with yourself. What I mean by that is assessing yourself in terms of your natural ability and how you perceive the future of your game. I guess there is a hands down answer to your question, everyone here has really nailed the head on the coffin... they are counterproductive... but only if you see some promise in the future of your game.

Althought... I must say that the irons do mask faulty swings but they do create a strong sense of confidence in a player.. so I see G impr irons as only a drain on your income b/c eventually you get to a point where you'll start to dislike the offset and wide soles of such irons and move into a smaller cavity/forged iron which will just cost you more money

[DDBowdoin]

In response to some of the posts I completely agree that the multi billion dollar golf industry definately plays on the magic fix club... but like I said before much of this is also the beautiful marketing campaigns conducted by such companies. I think it all comes down to your perspective on golf and where you see yourself in the game. I started playing golf later in my life, I am 21 and started playing two and half years ago, and so for me because I have progressed so fast in a such a relatively short period of time I enjoy the game but constantly am looking to push myself to new levels. If you are the weekend warrior who takes a cart on a short course and drinks beers while playing then sure, a wide soled hyrbid or fancy Callaway fusion is perfect for you because the purpose of your playing is a combination of enjoyment and competitive spirit yet it is obviously tipped towards enjoyment.

For myself and other aspiring players I acheive enjoyment through pure competition. I enjoy thinking about and talking about the game but that all leaves my head when I am on the course. It's like what Tigers says, when I step out there you may be my friend but I am there to destroy you... that's because my version of enjoyment comes from the thrill of an individual sport...

and about salesman... as a former golf employee its important for people to understand that the "spiffs" or commission from big name clubs is absolutely nothing. commissions are supported by the manufacturer and not a retailer, so Titleist, Mizuno and Callaway...etc (big names) have little to nothing in terms of commission ... literally if I sold a set of 690MB.S my commission was 2.35 whereas a set of nickents or macgregors was 45-60 a set of irons...

name brand isnt as important to me as much as type of club, I like a forged club with minimal offset and all of that jazz and astetics is everything because it inspires confidence, and confidence is king

[slimeberry]

OK guys. I'm fairly new to golf, about a year and a half playing now. I am also very new to this forum. I emailed Eric a few days ago and he was great. This is, however, a forum, so I have decides to take advantage of that. You guys all seen to know what you are talking about so I will run it past everyone. First, here is a little history. Sorry in advance for the length of this thread.

I am about an 18 hpt. player. I have been playing since Sept. 2004. I have improved a great deal from when I started (shooting in the 130's + with a little creative and forgiving scoring from my friends, to shooting a legitg. 94 on an average day). I started out as nearly every new golfer does, picking clubs not based on my swing type and ability, but based on Golf Digest and Golf Magazine, Hot Lists, etc.

I ended up buying, off the rack, my first set of non-hand-me-down clubs from Golf Galaxy. Ping G2 Driver / 3/ 5 Wood, Nike 22.o CPR Hybrid, Big Bertha Irons, Cleveland G10 wedges, and a 2 Ball White Hot Putter (Switched to a Cameron Studio last fall and love it).

I got some lessons from my pro at our club and started working on my game. My score, obviously, is getting better, but I can never get everything to work together. My irons are on fire, but my drives are everywhere. My Drives are straight, but I'm pulling my irons, etc.
So, I go back for more lessons and ask my pro to see if my off the rack equipment is right for me. It was not, and in a bad way.

Now, here is where I know I will get some mixed opinions because Cobra is considered a game improving product, but...

I ended up going with...

Cobra F Speed Driver
Cobra F Speed 3 Wood
Cobra Baffler 2/R
and Cobra Baffler 4/R ... on my longer clubs.

I love them. I am hitting greens from 230 yds with my 2/R Hybrid and my drives, while not much longer, seem to find more fairways than ever before. I feel that his decision to put me in these clubs was a wise one. I have more confidence in my game than ever, in terms of longer clubs.

My wedges were also 2.o off and the shafts were too short off the shelf. Same thing... I had him fit me and decided to go w/ ...

Titleist Vokey 52.o 200 Series GW
Titleist Vokey 56.o Spin Milled SW
and Titleist Vokey 60.o Spin Milled LW

Again, much improvement. My short game seems to be improving as well. I spun my LW about 4 ft. back just yesterday from 70 yds. to give myself a 2 foot birdie tap in.

Again, I feel that the club fitting made a HUGE difference.

OK, so on to irons. This is where I need some serious advice...

Been playing w/ my Bertha's. The clubs were, again, off the rack and too short and 2.o off. Tried my buddies Ping Eye 2 +'s, in my length and lie angle, believe it or not, but they seem very heavy and I seem to dig and chunk the ball a lot with them. Just seem kind of weird. My pro hates them and says that the technology and material has improved in 20 years, so why play with the Pings anyway?

So I have, again been fiffed to my size and lie. My pro recomended the Titleist 775.CB (5 - P).

Here is the issue...

First of all I love the look of these clubs. I can see, now, how my Bertha's really do look like a "Brick on a Stick". However, the Titleist's, well they intimidate me. I know that these are Titleist's most forgiving clubs, but I have never believed me to be good enough to play w/ Titleist Irons. (Although it seems as though everyone on this site plays Titleist).

I have hit them on the range and have had mixed results. My good shots are GREAT, but my "mis-hits" are every where. I took out a demo set yesterday, and I think I may have hit 2 good irons all day. Luckily my Drives and short game saved me, or I would have been back up to that 130 score again.

I want these clubs. I want to be a "Titleist Guy", because, let's face it, they make the most impressive and elite equipment in the market. They look good, great. But, as many of you say that clubs like this inspire confidence, when I look down at address, self doubt beging to creeop in and I loose confidence.

My pro says these are the clubs for me. That I will get it dialed in with a few more hours on the range. They are Titleist's most forgiving club and he says I will not out grow them for a LONG time.

He has been right w/ everything else he has suggested, but I am still very hesitant and confused about this decision.

You all talk of weekend warriors vs serious players. I am probably in the middle. I play about three times a week on a good week, take a lesson about once a month, hit range balls during lunch, etc. But, I have 2 small kids, a wife, and a business that I run. I don't see myself being able to play every day for a very, very long time (although I would like to).

I guess, after all this, the question is...

I just don't know where I fall. I want to improve. I play to win (although I never do at this point). I want to become a better player. But will I just be frustrating myself if I go with an iron that is "better" than I am.

You all are probably laughing out loud at this point, because you all play MB clubs, and these are still CB's, but this is a big step for me.

Would I be better off using a correctly fited set of "bricks", or will I gain confidence as I begin to use these clubs more and more?

I know that a lot of this is personal and that no one can say how I will play down the road, but any advise on the 775's, your thoughts on where I am as a player, your suggestion about club selection, etc. would be most appreciated. You all, again, seem to know a great deal more about this subject than I do, so any feedback at all would be great.

Again, sorry for the long thread. Thanks in advance, Scott

[DDBowdoin]

Ok, so lets get a few things settled. As I said before in my previous posts it comes down to where you see yourself going in the near future. What I mean by this is I have no idea how you play but from what you wrote it seems you are truly dedicated to the game. SO its a difficult situation because clubs that are right for you now may be not be right in a year. I am like you as I only started 3 years ago and what happened was I would get fit with a GII and then I would progress so quickly I would need the next level club and so it would continue. I have gone through 3 sets of irons and am finally settled with my Titleists.

So... it all comes down to your financial situation. Realistically you would probably want to go with an iron that suits you now and in the future get new clubs according to your ability. If you can't afford to do that then I personally would go with clubs that are a bit out of your range, I personally believe they'll force you to practice more and play to their ability because you know if you miss it will be bad. It worked for me...

[iacas]

Scott had emailed me this same thing, and I sent him a response...

I read your reviews on The Sand Trap web site and enjoy them very much. You seem very knowledgeable on the subject of club reviews, etc. I am struggling with some decisions and think I have found the answer, but would like some reinforcement from someone who is not trying to sell me anything to help me make up my mind. Since you seem to be a Titleist expert, I am coming to you. Hope thats OK.

That's fine. But, I didn't write the 775.CB review - Donald MacKenzie did. I'll BCC him on this email, but he can be reached at [email removed]

Here is some background info. I am about an 18 hpt. player. I have only been playing for about 2 years and try to play at least twice a week (Spring - Fall) and at least 2 to three times a month in the winter. I have watched my score fall from the 130's and up when I first started to the mid 90's on a good day now. I started playing with a Ping G2 Driver / 3 Wood / 5 Wood, a Nike 22.o CPR Hybrid, Callaway Big Bertha Irons, Cleveland G10 Wedges (52, 56, 60), and a 2 Ball Whit Hot Putter. I switched to a Cameron Newport Studio a year later and LOVE IT!!!

Let me cut in quickly here and point out something that's probably obvious, but which bears repeating anyway: new clubs won't shrink your scores alone (though properly fitted clubs can, yeah). If you're going to expect to shoot lower scores, expect to work harder at your game in addition to getting proper club fitting.

My trouble is with my irons. I started out slicing my irons as a beginner. The weighting that is built in to the Bertha's helped me stay straight. However, now that I am hitting the ball a little better I find myself hitting the ball higher than desired and pulling it left. I have hit some Ping Eye 2 + that my friend swears by, but seem to chunk and dig a lot more than usual. They feel heavy and weird.

In our forum, there are a few threads on "are your clubs better than you are" or "game improvement versus muscleback" clubs and so on. Some (like myself) believe that playing "tougher to hit" clubs leads to improvement because you know where you (mis)hit the ball and aren't rewarded for it as you can be with some of the more forgiving clubs.

Others feel that they want to shoot good scores and perhaps aren't willing to suffer possible discouragement at the hands of "tough" irons. Which side of the fence are you on? One final note here: the 775s are Titleist's least demanding set of irons. But since they're Titleists, they do demand a good bit more than most everyone else's "game improvement" clubs.

I have never considered myself good enough to play Titleist Irons. I love the look of Titleist Irons and have always dreamed of playing them, but have always assumed that they were not for me.

Titleist strongly prefers that people be custom fitted for their irons, which is why they tend not to approve of having reviews done in those massive "club tests" that Golf Magazine and Golf Digest put on.

Like I said, when I hit them good, I really love the ball flight, carry, etc. When I mis-hit I still can sense SOME forgiveness, but not as much as my "bricks on sticks" I have been playing. I know you guys say to learn to play with them, VS being coddled by game improving clubs forever, but our club champion still uses Callaway's.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist. I don't know that I'll ever get used to looking down a Big Bertha iron topline - they're thick and, to me, ugly.

I also am not out to shoot the lowest score - I get something else out of golf - the satisfaction of a well struck shot, an appreciation for being able to hit balls that go low, high, curve left or right, etc. And more... I can't do that with a super "forgiving" club, so I use what I use. You simply have to find what you get out of golf, and align your club choice with that. Perhaps you're not a Titleist kind of guy, perhaps you are. If you look at your clubs as a status item - as in "I'm _good_ enough to play them," even for yourself - that's good and bad. Confidence is good, but what about the days you don't hit them too well - will you feel bad about the game of golf or will you be inspired to work harder? Your club champion may not get satisfaction out of the same things I enjoy. He may want the most forgiving club he can find so he can shoot the lowest score possible. It's a broad spectrum, the "what do you enjoy about golf" spectrum. Where you find yourself on that spectrum will tell you a lot about what kinds of clubs you would enjoy using.

What is your opinion on the Titleist 775.CB vs a Super Sized game improving iron. Like I said, I think a lot of it is a mental block that is keeping me from believing I can play w/ a set of Titleist.

I've never hit them. You'll want to talk to Don about that.

Right now I have hit so many buckets of balls with so many different clubs that I feel as though my arms will fall off. I think the Titleist are the way to go, but needed the advise of a non partisan expert. Any advice would be very helpful and most appreciated.

I'm not non-partisan, I assure you of that. I have my tastes and biases like anyone else, and though you may initially think I've not given you an actual answer, the answer is "I can't give you an answer." And, I think, that's the best answer you can get right now. You have to look at yourself, discover what you want to get out of golf and what you can get out of your equipment, and go from there.

[slimeberry]

Eric,

Thanks for the reply and taking the time to answer each issue that I brought up in my email. You were very helpful in getting me to think about the type of golfer I want to become, not just winning a skin next weekend.

I think that my issues w/ the Titleist irons are more mental than my physical ability to hit them. I guess it seemed kind of weird for me that my pro would suggest game improving long clubs to me like the Cobra Speeds and Bafflers, (he also had me hit the Titleist 905) and then turn around and suggest Titleist Irons, which are much LESS forgiving than Cobra Irons, or the Bertha's and Eye 2's I had been hitting. Like I said, self doubt creeps in when I address w/ the 775's, a mental "I'm not worthy" montra, so to speak. I think a few lessons with these irons and some time put in on the range will cure my of my worries. Although taking it from the range to the track isn't always the easiest thing for me.

I just like to hear other' imput and advice before making such a game changing decision. I think that I probably will get worse before I get better with these clubs, but clearly my game needs a lot of work anyway. I think that with the proper time served, I will learn to hit these clubs. It's not as though I am swithcing to muscle backs anyway.

I also appreciate the advice from the previous guy who posted before Eric. Thanks.

I have decided to go w/ the 775's and will see what happens. Obviously, I do love the game and am very dedicated to it (too much so, my wife thinks) or I wouldn't put so much time and worry into picking the proper clubs. I would just go back to Golf Galaxy and buy the next hottest thing.

You guys have been a big help. Thanks, and I will let you know how the next few rounds turn out.

[shortgame85]

I have just read this thread and, as you can see from "what's in my bag," I, too, chose the 775CB set. As a fellow high handicapper trying to lower my score and enjoy the game, I like playing a less forgiving iron than the Callaways I previously played, in part, because the less forgiving club forces me to work harder on the quality of my swing. Because I am not ready for clubs like the 735CM, the 775CB clubs seem to me a step in the right direction. I appreciate and agree with Eric's response to your queries, as your quest for an appropriate iron set seemed very similar to mine. I hope you enjoy your new irons as much as I enjoy mine. How do you like the Cobra baffler and Driver?

[slimeberry]

Thanks for the reply. I love my Cobra products. I own a Ping G2, have owned a Nike SQ (that was a mistake), and have demoed the Titleist 905R and Callaway Fusion. By far I like the Cobra better than any of them. I would say that the G2 and the 905R would be seconds, but not even close seconds.

I also love the Bafflers. The Nike CPR's I used to hit really ballooned the ball up, almost too high for my taste. These Cobra's feel great. They have a more classic look than the CPR's, which were very ugly in my opinion. And the the ball flight is perfect for me.

We have a 519 yd. par 5 at my home track. I used to hit driver, hybrid, wedge, to be on in 3 (assuming I didn't shank my wedge and end up right of the green). With these new Cobra's, the last 4 times I have played I have been on in 2 w/ Driver and my R/2 Baffler 3 out of those 4 times. The 4th time I was in a green side bunker in 2, still not bad.

I know that not every club is right for every player, but these Cobra's seem to fit me like a glove.

As for the Titleist 775's, I should be getting them in about a week. In the mean time I have been using the clubs demo set. I have good shots and bad ones, but don't we all. If you get a second, let me know how long it took you to really get dialed in with those clubs after switching from your "game improving" sticks. Just curious.

Thanks for the post, and let me know if you try the Speeds and Bafflers. Can't say enough good things about them.

[slimeberry]

Sorry. From the look of your "What's in my bag"... it looks like you already are using the Speed and Baffler. Anyway, I think they are great clubs.

[DDBowdoin]

I have a feeling you'll really enjoy your 775's ...

as for me, I am in love with the feel of the 735cm's but they do take a lot of work, especially with my shafts being a tad stiff I was suprised that I wasn't really penalized all that much... my clubs were custom made but they were kept at a standard lie and my balls are pulling a little left... my previous clubs were 2 flat and I think I might bend these clubs a degree flat to split the difference

[shortgame85]

Scott: I went from graphite shafts in my Callaway set of irons to Nippon reg flex steel in the 775CBs. I thought the heavier shaft might take some adjustment and might cause some loss of distance. I was wrong on both counts. Actually, the Titleist clubs feel less whippy and seem to me easier to control; by that, I mean the clubhead seems easier to square. Consequently, I seem to be able to get the ball in the right direction more often with the new clubs. I also prefer the way the ball feels when well struck with the Titleist clubs. Getting the distances of each loft didn't take that long. The differences I noticed between these clubs and my previous ones had to do with feel and a greater sense of control. I just like the way it feels to strike a ball well with these clubs. I also like the looks of these irons better than the Callaways: they seem smaller, thinner and more square. They are a little less forgiving, but that fact has caused me to work a bit harder on my swing mechanics. Also, the pitching wedge and the gap wedge give me great confidence around the green, and I have hit better chip shots with these iron than the Callaways ( well, I have practiced my chipping a bit more lately and that may have something to do with enjoying a little more success ). They have less offset in the shorter irons and I really like that, especially as I transition to my Vokey 56* wedge. Good luck with your irons.

[Golfer7945]

Hello! fellow golfers, I am playing KZG forged irons (fitted) and find that my ball striking is becoming more dynamic. Playing properly fitted forged irons is not a hindrance to shot making (like my friends said that this type of club would be) I find the clubs to be moderately forgiving when I am having an off day. On days that I am confident and relaxed hitting shots with the forged irons is a pure rush of adrenaline fueled joy.

I look forward to reading the comments from members who have played both game improvement irons and forged irons cavity and or blade style.

Dale