Are most amateur golfers being mislead on how to swing?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

I have not posted in awhile, (check in and read everyday) but I could not sit quiet about this thread anymore.  Will  the OP please answer jamo's questions?

I answered Jamo's questions already , he asked, "So then how does one find their natural swing? Which tips are fine, and which lead you down the path of artificiality?"

see below...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hello again Jamo,

Allow me to try to answer your intelligent question.

Feedback tips are fine. E.g. When taking a practice swing, can you see the direction the club head is travelling through or over the grass. On the same breath can you see this same detail when you are hitting the ball.

Verbal instruction tips would lead you down the path of artificiality. E.g. Telling a golfer to shift his weight towards the target on the down swing with a turn of the hips and keeping his head still. I'm sorry but our muscle system can't translate these words into the proper action. Occasionally we do get it right but it is not down to the verbal command, that's why we can't repeat it.

I'm sorry this is a rather vague answer, but I have written an unpublished book on this subject that I will gladly send you, for free, if you are interested.

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I answered Jamo's questions already, he asked, "So then how does one find their natural swing? Which tips are fine, and which lead you down the path of artificiality?"

see below...

I was looking for the answer to the other part, "How does one find there natural swing?"

Edit:  You can ignore my question if you would like.  I think you will have your hands  full shortly.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

This is too easy but I'll answer...The direction of the path of course.

This is exactly what I was talking about.  How most instructors don't understand the basics of ball flight laws, which is really basic compression physics.  All due respect, your answer is incorrect.  Ball start where the face is pointing and curves away from the path.  The face is a tool of projection, so for a draw face NEEDS to be aimed right of the target and the path will be further out to the right.  Quick example on Trackman, face open (aimed to the right) 2* and the path is 4* out the right.

Please read this

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[sean_miller]

Since we're about to get all sciency, isn't it "misled"?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by mvmac

This is exactly what I was talking about.  How most instructors don't understand the basics of ball flight laws, which is really basic compression physics.  All due respect, your answer is incorrect.  Ball start where the face is pointing and curves away from the path.  The face is a tool of projection, so for a draw face NEEDS to be aimed right of the target and the path will be further out to the right.  Quick example on Trackman, face open (aimed to the right) 2* and the path is 4* out the right.

Sorry, the video conditions are completely inconclusive. Is it my eyes or is the face of the club closed at impact. I don't see 2° open.

Anyway, hitting a ball on an in to out path with the club face 2° open would produce anything from a slight push to a slight draw: By closing the face with the same path the shot would range from a push hook to a severe push hook. All of these shots would start in the direction of the path unless it was a less powerful swing like a chip or a putt, where the face alignment would determine direction.

Sorry but I shape balls for a living. Using a power swing, I have not yet managed to start a ball left of centre using an in to out swing no matter how severely I close the face.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Sorry, the video conditions are completely inconclusive. Is it my eyes or is the face of the club closed at impact. I don't see 2° open.

Anyway, hitting a ball on an in to out path with the club face 2° open would produce anything from a slight push to a slight draw: By closing the face with the same path the shot would range from a push hook to a severe push hook. All of these shots would start in the direction of the path unless it was a less powerful swing like a chip or a putt, where the face alignment would determine direction.

Sorry but I shape balls for a living. Using a power swing, I have not yet managed to start a ball left of centre using an in to out swing no matter how severely I close the face.

The video wasn't illustrating a draw, that was another point, I was giving an example of what the numbers would look like for a "stock" draw, the ratio of face to path.

The video was illustrating a golfer swinging in a direction with the face in another and the ball starting where the face is pointing.  Very clear, face wide open and swing left, where does the ball start?

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.  But it's like disagreeing that the world is round, I'm serious.  These kind of conversations can get out of control and I don't want that to happen.  What you may feel and do are completely different things.  The laws of physics don't change for you, me or Jack Nicklaus.  Face determines start line, this is NOT my opinion, it's fact and I encourage you to do some research.  Talk to a Trackman or Flightscope expert, ask them about ball flight laws.

http://johngrahamgolf.com/blog/new-ball-flight-laws/

http://johngrahamgolf.com/blog/trackman-initial-ball-flight-direction/

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter5.pdf

First of all, the data reveal that a shot’s Horizontal Launch Angle (HLA) is 85% determined by face angle and only 15% determined by club path. This means that starting a shot perfectly on line (0° HLA) not only can be accomplished if the club path is 0° and the face angle is 0°, but also if, for example, the club path is + 6.7° (in- side-out) and the face angle is 1° closed (relative to the target line)! This is in direct contradiction to the ‘old’ Ball Flight Laws, which explained the starting direction of the ball (HLA) is determined by the club path.

[tristanhilton85]

Just a quick question for those who think that the path gives the ball it initial direction... If I make a proper swing and take my divot in front of the ball then that means that the club is still on a downward path when it hits the ball, correct?  If this is the case and the path determines the direction of the ball, why the hell does the ball go up and not into the ground?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Just a quick question for those who think that the path gives the ball it initial direction... If I make a proper swing and take my divot in front of the ball then that means that the club is still on a downward path when it hits the ball, correct?  If this is the case and the path determines the direction of the ball, why the hell does the ball go up and not into the ground?

Well said.  I was taught the incorrect ball flight laws growing up and could never hit a draw, I hated draws.  Because whenever I tried to do it, it was a pull or a draw that started at the target and curved to the left.  We are all learning here and I think we have the highest golf IQ's of any forum out there

[kathybhylton]

Yeah. I think they are misled. Well, I'm not an exception though lol. It is very difficult to control it that's why as much as possible, practice it.

[MiniBlueDragon]

The easiest way to demonstrate the ball flight laws I found is to put a ball down on the floor, grab a putter and aim the face at the target. Then keep the face of the putter aiming at the target but move the putter in a straight line 45 degrees in-to-out and see where the ball starts. If it's path then the ball will start out 45 degrees to the right, if it's face then it'll start off more or less at the target.

e.g.

Which line does the ball start closest to?

[saevel25]

I would bet that no golfer succeeded using there natural swing. Even Ben Hogan didn't use his natural swing. He worked hard to get rid of a hook that he fought his whole career. His natural swing was something he couldn't win with. So he changed his swing to get rid of his weaknesses. I understand your point, you see instructors saying, you must do 100% what i say, my system is the right one. Those instructors are idiots, there is no one system, no one swing for everyone. Like the S&T;, its been discussed before that no one will use 100% of there method, well maybe a handful. But majority of people can improve by using some of what they teach. I know i have.

[Patrick57]

OK, with high speed cameras and putters we can play around with ball flight laws. I'm sticking with the old/real laws and that's what you feel you are doing. My eyes are my high speed camera and I don't try to hit draws and fades with my putter. Like Trevino, Couples, Lehman - to mention a few - I create most of my shots on an in to out path, creating a push, push fade or push hook/draw. I rarely go into the 9 different flights with my students, only when specifically asked but I will describe a draw as in to out with a -1, -2 or -3 club face.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by saevel25

I would bet that no golfer succeeded using there natural swing. Even Ben Hogan didn't use his natural swing. He worked hard to get rid of a hook that he fought his whole career. His natural swing was something he couldn't win with. So he changed his swing to get rid of his weaknesses. I understand your point, you see instructors saying, you must do 100% what i say, my system is the right one. Those instructors are idiots, there is no one system, no one swing for everyone. Like the S&T;, its been discussed before that no one will use 100% of there method, well maybe a handful. But majority of people can improve by using some of what they teach. I know i have.

I would beg to differ. In this day and age you are probably right but I would single out a few exceptions from the past. Doug Sanders, Seve, Trevino, Bobby Jones and my country man, Monte to a certain degree.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Just a quick question for those who think that the path gives the ball it initial direction... If I make a proper swing and take my divot in front of the ball then that means that the club is still on a downward path when it hits the ball, correct?  If this is the case and the path determines the direction of the ball, why the hell does the ball go up and not into the ground?

I love this. For the initial 4/1000 of a second of impact that ball does start towards the ground but it deflects and there's only one way for it to go and that's up, Take a 3 iron with normal fairway conditions and it doesn't matter how steep you hit down on top of the ball, it still deflects. The flattest flight you are going to get with any club is when you blade it.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

OK, with high speed cameras and putters we can play around with ball flight laws. I'm sticking with the old/real laws and that's what you feel you are doing. My eyes are my high speed camera and I don't try to hit draws and fades with my putter. Like Trevino, Couples, Lehman - to mention a few - I create most of my shots on an in to out path, creating a push, push fade or push hook/draw. I rarely go into the 9 different flights with my students, only when specifically asked but I will describe a draw as in to out with a -1, -2 or -3 club face.

As most golfers know, feel isn't real, however if thinking that your ball flight starts on swing plane works for you that's fine; stick with what you believe as it clearly works for you whether it's factual or not. If I believed that kissing my ball before every shot would summon fairies to carry my ball to the green and it works for me then let me keep thinking that.

If you're sincerely teaching people how to play golf however that's an entirely different thing and the student needs to at the very least be shown both points of view and allowed to make up their own mind.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

OK, with high speed cameras and putters we can play around with ball flight laws.

We can't "play around" with them. They're physical realities, and they affect the way people give golf instruction.

A golfer comes pull-slicing the ball.

Old Ball Flight Laws Instruction: close the clubface more, rotate it through impact, etc.

New (Correct) Ball Flight Laws Instruction: get the path going more to the right.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I love this. For the initial 4/1000 of a second of impact that ball does start towards the ground but it deflects and there's only one way for it to go and that's up,

The golf ball does not "start towards the ground," no, absolutely not.

As Mike and others said, this is not an opinion.

So to answer the question, it's now clear to me that all of your amateurs are misled on how to make the ball curve (or get the ball in the air, if you think it bounces off the ground), which in this day and age is fairly sad. The information is out there, for free, and takes minutes to understand.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

As most golfers know, feel isn't real, however if thinking that your ball flight starts on swing plane works for you that's fine; stick with what you believe as it clearly works for you whether it's factual or not. If I believed that kissing my ball before every shot would summon fairies to carry my ball to the green and it works for me then let me keep thinking that.

If you're sincerely teaching people how to play golf however that's an entirely different thing and the student needs to at the very least be shown both points of view and allowed to make up their own mind.

Yes what you feel you are doing and what you are actually doing is two different things. I felt my heels hitting my buttocks as I jumped over the fence, if high speed cameras prove that this wasn't the case, I still got over the fence. I am not going to start shaping shots with new laws when my feel for the old laws have held up solidly until now. I teach golfers everyday on drawing a ball and I am not about to change my successful policy on this. Quite simply, in to out with a closed face is going start the ball off to the right and it will curve from right to left in the air.

The new laws may be 100% correct but I am not about to change my faith. I'll let the scientists argue this one out.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Quite simply, in to out with a closed face is going start the ball off to the right and it will curve from right to left in the air.

The new laws may be 100% correct but I am not about to change my faith. I'll let the scientists argue this one out.

The scientists have already figured it out. Your "faith" is wrong, just as people who think the earth is flat are wrong.

A ball will not start to the right if the clubface is closed an appreciable amount. A clubface closed two degrees will start LEFT of the target even if the path is four degrees right, and then hook from there, missing the target badly.

Your feel isn't real, but the problem is that as an instructor, you're passing on bad and unreliable feels to your students, and inhibiting their ability to self-diagnose problems. If they're straight hooking the ball one day, your advice might be to swing more to the right (for a righty), which would be terrible advice .

These are the physical realities of the world in which we live.